watched it today but he didn't really say How to get these bees. It was like they already had them in their area so they propagate from them.

 

... he didn't really say How to get these bees.

In these circles there is a big emphasis placed on deploying feral stock as the base for selection - particularly that of the native AMM subspecies.

 

I previous had found this article on the topic which seems like it's from the same group

Identifying Varroa Resistant Bees – Westerham Beekeepers

westerham.kbka.org.uk

 

Thanks for sharing this data!

I think honeybees have 'always' been the solution - Unfortunately (for bees), humans have little patience and refuse to listen...

TBH; I don't think we'd even be discussing varroa in 2024 'if' we simply allowed bees to deal with it back in the 1980's. I'm hardly the first to make such a claim.

Bees will figure it out 'if' we let them - Historically, they've been pretty successful at surviving until humans began thinking 'we' know better.

jus sayin'....

 

Thanks for sharing this data!

I think honeybees have 'always' been the solution - Unfortunately (for bees), humans have little patience and refuse to listen...

TBH; I don't think we'd even be discussing varroa in 2024 'if' we simply allowed bees to deal with it back in the 1980's. I'm hardly the first to make such a claim.

Bees will figure it out 'if' we let them - Historically, they've been pretty successful at surviving until humans began thinking 'we' know better.

jus sayin'....

The issue for the US (unlike in the UK) - we do not have native populations (a few) AND everyone from the commercial side to the hobby side do their best to prevent the native populations from forming.
The hobbyists just don't get it.
The commercials don't care for it - bad for business.

In UK the native populations persisted thru, adapted and now are on the rebound AND people actually support their native populations because they understand the value.

This is unlike in the US where people impatiently keep looking for the magic bees shipped to them "ready to go".
What kind of mentality is that?
It is quick satisfaction seeking consumer mentality.
I am not going to change my lifestyle - but just gimme the pill.

 

I would bet a large sum of money that there are far more so called "hobbiests" that care about this subject, than the numbers of commercials who do! Most of the commercials are well served by the "meat" bees and ritual treatment.

Granted there is a high percentage of hobbiests who know very little about bees but they are not the major force for status quo. They source their bees regularly from what is majorly available not because they dont care.

The few who are producing far more suitable stock could not presently put a dent in the demand. Build it and they will come! Insults are majorly non productive in modifying behavior.
Makes a person wonder what the payoff is in doing so!

 

I would bet a large sum of money that there are far more so called "hobbiests" that care about this subject, than the numbers of commercials who do! Most of the commercials are well served by the "meat" bees and ritual treatment.

Granted there is a high percentage of hobbiests who know very little about bees but they are not the major force for status quo. They source their bees regularly from what is majorly available not because they dont care.

The few who are producing far more suitable stock could not presently put a dent in the demand. Build it and they will come! Insults are majorly non productive in modifying behavior.
Makes a person wonder what the payoff is in doing so!

Fantastic point. Which is also the argument I have made. There is not enough information, or exposure out there to VSH and mite resistant bees-or producers, for that matter- and from my experience selling queens locally for so many years, I kid you not, in my experience, it's always the old commercial guys that laugh at the notion all the while they spread their ****ty genetics to every corner of the state. Makes me quite upset.
As opposed to this, "hobbyists" are almost ALWAYS the ones to find the most interest in the subject and the more likely to accept them and use them. So, could the problem instead lie with people who reject these types of bees? I think that's a big part of it. And certain people aren't helping with the matter. But, uphill battle, uphill battle.

 

I know that is a discouraging sort of message. And it does appear that in at least some circumstances bees can live with varroa. Mostly in favorable climates, small nest sizes, low hive densities, and circumstances which select for less virulent viruses.

Perhaps @drummerboy is correct that if we could stop the moving of bees around things would just work out. That would put more virulent virus strains at a disadvantage, as they would burn themselves out, killing the bees and perishing with them.

But in the real world we don't have that option. So keep bees however you can.

 

Right on!!!! The new beeks are kind of stuck!!! I have said on several posts with new people that just joined and are waiting for bees to put out traps. I know that's pretty daunting for somebody just starting out, but, I'm just sayin.
Good luck to everyone, I'm still struggling myself, but I am going to be retired and full time in bee keeping.
Who knows, Maybe you will be seeing "Area 52, Bees and Trees" at a theatre near you some day?

 

Does anyone have any reading on the 'Stores Secure' concept? The hives that plugged out early on goldenrod, for lack of equipment, had a November OAV mite drop in the order of tens compared to ones I managed for fall honey and later fed syrup were in the hundreds. I had attributed it to just a restricted brood nest, but if it is an induced hygienic response then I think I can take advantage of it.

 

Does anyone have any reading on the 'Stores Secure' concept?

Have a look for Torben Schiffer here on the pages of Beesource.

 

Duplicate delete

 

One of the main tools or enabling circumstances leading to adaptation is the geographic islanding. Isolation from every threat imaginable. A little valley, an island, a waterway, solid borders etc.
Human distribution and transportation of goods, animals, diseases has removed the effects of these natural barriers. We can rant an rave about how damaging this is to our attempts to achieve isolation and work at coaxing out bits of adaptive behavior by the bees: Hand wringing really, as the genii of global trade and profit will not willingly go back into the bottle.
There does appear to be some promise of isolated areas where there is occurrence of adaptation to varro; Varroa does appear the main vector of most of the worst challenges of bees. With a bit more documented evidence of promising resistance, I wonder if it might be possible to have such areas decreed a sanctuary. Such places where adaptation etc., could grow with some protection from the hordes! Many of the locations I see mentioned here are not centers of great economic concern to the major shakers and movers in the nation wide pollination industry so they would not put their weight against such protected areas.

We have all seen the publicity in the mass media about saving the bees. Too bad the answer has mostly contributed little to the welfare of bees. Flow hives does not save bees!
There is power there though if it could be directed. Get a bit of positive evidence that bees of a certain lineage can exist with much reduced mite treatments and even if their productivity for pollination purposes was reduced somewhat it might get some buy in. There is presently a lot of opposing inertia (for good economic reasons) but get it moving in the right direction and _ _ _ _ _ _ _ !

This would take some imagination and abilities that are for the most part not dependent upon beekeeping knowledge. The typical beekeeper (if there is such a thing) would likely not be the right fit anyway.

 

Going back to the beginning of this thread, It looks like the beekeepers in question have gotten to the point where a single intervention (an artificial swarm) at the end of April is sufficient to keep Varroa in check. I wonder what their winter survival numbers are?

I suppose this is partly due to resistant bees and partly due to less virulent viruses. Tt may also be partly due to healthier bees if the use of agricultural chemicals is different.

I think the main requirement for adaptation is the presence of the desired traits in the larger population. If the necessary genetic variants are there it is just a matter of getting them to line up in a subset of the population. But if they aren't no amount of selection can produce them. So chickens can't fly. (much) but it wouldn.t appear all that difficult to breed them into flying birds. Goats can't fly either. But that breeding experiment is doomed to failure. The example is a bit ridiculous but it illustrates the point. There are real practical limits on adaptation.

We know that small colonies that swarm often can survive in the US without much difficulty. That level of resistance is pretty common. There was a study that showed that years ago. Here it is courtesy of Randy Oliver:

How Honey Bee Colonies Survive in the Wild: Testing the Importance of Small Nests and Frequent Swarming | PLOS ONE

 

I thought Steve Riley's talk was excellent - it presented the most rational argument I've yet heard regarding the TF vs non-TF debate. It did raise a few questions in my mind, and so I'll send him an email with these - will keep you posted if/when he replies.
LJ

 

I thought Steve Riley's talk was excellent - it presented the most rational argument I've yet heard regarding the TF vs non-TF debate. It did raise a few questions in my mind, and so I'll send him an email with these - will keep you posted if/when he replies.
LJ

As promised, here is Steve Ridley's reply to my questions regarding whether the genetic basis for what I've been calling "anti-Varroa behaviour" (which Steve calls 'VR' - Varroa Resistance) is dominant or not, and whether one particular sub-species of bee (and perhaps therefore colour) is implicated ...

Thanks for the email and I’m pleased you enjoyed the presentation. We
try to avoid the TF vs non-TF debate which tends to disintegrate into a
disagreement between beekeepers, rather than focus on the capability of
bees.

Our bees in the project have darkened. Only one of the founder members
started off with (inherited) “yellowish” (ie; Italian influence) bees.
Now, with open mating, her bees have gone dark tan / blackish. That’s
interesting, but not that important to us. Key are the varroa resistant
(“VR”) traits being present.

The other founders started with local bees and certainly mine have darkened
but still have some hybridisation in. Bar the outer reaches of the UK,
this is pretty normal given the level of imports in recent years. To us,
“genetic gold” are local bees adapted to our local flora and micro
climate. On the www.varroaresistant.uk website, all case studies use local
bees. It seems the continuity is critical to the adaption that has taken
place with varroa. So, VR traits over sub-species!

As an aside, we will be DNA testing bees at a new breeding project for VR
bees to base-line the level of Amm, which is, of course, the most adapted
sub-species to UK conditions.

Can different sub-species adapt to varroa? Sure. Can you buy in these
sub-species ready for varroa? No, in our view. They are mostly imported,
then treated by UK bee suppliers before being sold on. It’s a triumph of
marketing. These sub-species are best in their own conditions which shaped
them.

The VR traits are all over the UK and just need to be identified and bred
from.

The genetics of VR are not well understood. The best we have from the USDA
and a French report (below) is that they are polygenic, ie; neither
dominant or recessive but additive - the more there are, the more the
traits are expressed. The French research points to 60 different places in
the genome for VR. We are not anywhere near being able to pin down genetic
markers for breeding. But, we can, as beekeepers, see the VR traits in
action.

Sequence-based genome-wide association studies reveal the polygenic
architecture of Varroa destructor resistance in Western honey bees Apis
mellifera [1]
biorxiv.org [1]

The “Transitioning off miticides” lecture wasn’t recorded, but the
subject is covered in “The Honey Bee Solution to Varroa” book. It will
also be covered at the BIBBA Conference on 15 February 2025.

Varroa Resistance through Bee Improvement - BIBBA

On 15th February 2025 BIBBA held a conference which recruited the leading experts, both scientific and practical, in varroa resistance

bibba.com

Thanks for your interest and good luck with the research.

[1] Sequence-based genome-wide association studies reveal the polygenic architecture of Varroa destructor resistance in Western honey bees Apis mellifera


The above Polygenic Architecture paper can be downloaded in .pdf format from:

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2024.02.16.580755v1.full.pdf

For anyone not up to speed on the terminology, polygenic inheritance implies a character or phenotypic trait regulated by more than one gene - i.e. a cumulative expression of multiple genes. Note that polygenic inheritance is different from Mendelian Inheritance in terms of pattern and expression.

So - this VR trait being polygenic is something of a bummer, as it would appear that VR inheritance then cannot be guaranteed with each mating - but it does at least show some 'light at the end of the tunnel'.
LJ

 

Say what ya want - blame who ya want...the biggest threat to honeybees (life on earth) is us, it's always been us.

When we've finally killed ourselves off - life on earth will flourish again. That 26,000 year cycle (age of Aquarius) is upon us....Happy days indeed!!

 

How Honey Bee Colonies Survive in the Wild: Testing the Importance of Small Nests and Frequent Swarming | PLOS ONE

One minor caveat about this experiment.

Seeley began with 12 in each arm. But two of the small colonies died over the first winter and were replaced with similar colonies with a similar history. I understand the rationale for this I think. But it amounts to starting with 14 in the small colony arm. Wintering in a single deep in Ithaca NY is an uncertain proposition.

so you could look at this as 8 surviving out of 14. Not that bad. However it might not have as much statistical significance.

Since the hives cast at least 10 swarms, you can see how you could establish a viable feral population without any significant adaptation.

Perhaps the great die-off of feral colonies with the arrival of Varroa was just the elimination of AMM type bees with no resistance, and the recovery was just their being replaced with swarms from commercial hives of Carniolans and Italians.

The bees for Seeley's experiment in Ithaca were commercial Italian bees, not special in any way as far as I can tell.

 

One note.

If he tried that experiment in SE Wisconsin, my guess is it would have turned out differently.

I think maybe 3 colonies of the 24 spring starts would make it through winter. Not sure why, but it is not as easy here.

@GregB - if you made 24 clean starts in 10 frame Lang deeps in April, with no treatments or manipulations, how many do you think would be alive the following April? 22?

You would be starting with commercial Italian queens from California and about 3/4 pound of bees in each hive...

 

Perhaps the great die-off of feral colonies with the arrival of Varroa was just the elimination of AMM type bees...

I am aware of bees with whole DNA reads of upwards of 80% AMM in Eastern Kentucky. Dr. Harpur's genetic work is finding similar results in very remote areas - so there is still at least some still out there here in the US.

 

Good to know.

I was thinking about a study Randy Oliver referenced that compared DNA from feral bees prior to Varroa to feral bees after Varroa.

It was maybe 5 years ago I read it, but if I recall correctly, the majority AMM bees went from about 80% of feral to about 3%.

I could probably find it because he does a good job of archiving things.

 

I went so far as to write a book on TF / low stress beekeeping, and how to transition to it. (Buy it! Er, I might have to work on my marketing skills.) A key difference between the US and UK which stood out to me is the US emphasis on maximising $$$ return, leading to unsustainable short termism.

 

LJ,

I've thought and read a lot about gene shift. Why do left-alone bees in the UK get darker etc?

There's two approaches possible. You can selectively breed for mite maulers etc and sell VSH queens. This trait dilutes as soon as they outbreed.

Or you can allow natural selection, which results in a symphony of minor changes in mamy genes. In my area, the local unmanaged colonies in roofs last years (one, 18 years) and I reckon they must all be using similar symphonies because varroa is almost absent in hives founded by their swarms - the trait is stable.

All populations seem to have some hygiene etc traits, which makes sense as they're all ultimately descended from survivor colonies which faced occasional disease and ectoparasites. But breeders have prioritised uniformity and other traits, and used miticides, so these antiparasite behaviours are more deeply buried in what Greg terms "meat bees".

More on genetics and selection in my book. <Subliminal whispering> Buy the book. </Subliminal whispering>

 

Why do left-alone bees in the UK get darker etc?

This is not just the mites.

In my repeated WI examples - non-frugal, untimely brooding bees are very likely do starve here anyway.
Forget mites.

Simple experiment:

• maintain ~0 mites at all times (treat and retreat)
• do NOT feed (at all).

Big majority of the current WI bees will trivially starve - being out of tune with the local environment and unable to properly budget.

This is how frugal (Carnica-trending/Primorsky-trending) bees have better chances - the darker morphology stays afloat by simply NOT starving when NOT fed.

These bees (pictured) should just die as unfit.
And yet these are exactly the bees widely maintained in WI (as if "local").
My posts (not liked by some members) refer to these bees.
This is how preventing any resemblance of the localized bees looks like - combination of both anti-mite agents AND feeding/stimulation in and out of season.

 

I think Greg's been on the money for some time now by emphasising that - in the absence of a simple 'litmus-test' for hygienic behaviour - that colony survival is the best yardstick to use. Perhaps I should have said "continued survival", for as Steve Riley explained, there is the problem of one- and two-year success stories which can lead people to believe they've 'got there' and erroneously breed from those Queens.

It sure ain't straightforward or easy ...
LJ

 

Additive - in other words.

Tom Glenn was espousing this point over 20 years ago now - he's proved quite prescient on a good many things regarding resistance breeding:

Tom Glenn has a good write-up on honey bee breeding and describes VSH as an 'additive trait':

An additive trait is controlled by neither dominant or recessive genes. SMR/VSH is probably determined by more than one gene. So the more of these genes are present, the more of the trait will be expressed. This is lucky for us because by starting with queens inbred for the trait, a breeder can easily import the trait into his stock at the 50% level. So if we are careful, we can keep the good bees we have but add this SMR/VSH trait to them. As time goes on and more drones in the population carry the trait, resistance should become more common in our bees and in feral colonies. The return of the feral bees will be a good indicator of the bees gaining resistance.

 

And herein is the other issue - the L-word is missing.
.....This is lucky for us because by starting with queens inbred for the trait, a breeder can easily import the trait into his stock at the 50% level. ....

Sure enough the I-word is right there (the importation).
Then everyone jumps on that importation train - heck, even researchers suggest doing the same.

By importation you trying to fix a feature A (because all everyone cares for is the A).
BUT - all the while you screw the features X, Y, Z and more.

SO the Brits are getting it right.
But the US folk are sitting on the quick fix pill - a cultivated trait around here.
Which is obviously not working - the ready-to-go, imported bees.

Import the trait once (pretty much have to in the absence of the native pops).
But then fix the trait in place.
Let it all sit and brew (even if getting thru the bottlenecks). Takes time, patience and luck.

 

And herein is the other issue - the L-word is missing.
.....This is lucky for us because by starting with queens inbred for the trait, a breeder can easily import the trait into his stock at the 50% level. ....

Sure enough the I-word is right there (the importation).
Then everyone jumps on that importation train - heck, even researchers suggest doing the same.

@GregB
well to be fair all the bees by you were "imported" due to them not being native there.
So either end of the spectrum, never import or always import is not the Hill to die on IMO.

seems research is showing traits are "additive" so if the trait you want is slow perking to the surface, Importing it may be very advantageous.

By importation you trying to fix a feature A (because all everyone cares for is the A).
BUT - all the while you screw the features X, Y, Z and more.

IF traits are additive how did you screw with X,Y,Z by making it X,Y,Z,A?

your issue is not too many VSH bees being imported, So why the resistance. Since all the bees were at one point imported.

 

@GregB
well to be fair all the bees by you were "imported" due to them not being native there.
So either end of the spectrum, never import or always import is not the Hill to die on IMO.

And right there you cut away what I said in the same post:

..........Import the trait once (pretty much have to in the absence of the native pops). ..............

If quote - then quote the entire context when it is relevant.

 

That some of the best brains in the world are still arguing about the relative importance of so many variables and their short and long term implications suggests that there is no one correct answer. We can construct or imagine scenarios ( local conditions) that seem to support the truth of such constructs but other combinations contradict their supposed truths. Overlooked factors are pointed out that could have influenced others truths. Local conditions appear to be highly influential; can we realistically expect honeybees writ large to adapt to such diverse requirements?

It seems to me that the most we can ask for is a heightened tolerance to varroa. One gained without losing other present or future coping mechanisms. Are we asking too much of the organism? Would granting man's every wish be curse or kindness?

Reminds me of the parable of the Chameleon lizard that changes color to match the background but gave up in despair when dropped down upon one of the highland tartans!

 

can we realistically expect honeybees writ large to adapt to such diverse requirements?

Keep in mind, all the adaptations are already in place - 100 years can NOT wipe out 1,000,00 years of pre-exisiting evolution.
The already embedded adaptive traits just need to be applied properly.

Keep the northern-trending bees where they belong.
Keep the southern-trending bees where they belong.
Keep the desert bees where they belong.

 

Thinking is missing from the process my friend....

 

I have brought Russians in every 4-6 years for almost 20 years.
The traits I like seem to fade away, However this last time it took longer, considering a few swarms escaped, maybe the local is shifting.

 

How do you like your Russians?
I have thought about them, but I need gentle bees in mt location.
As near as I can tell, not all "Russian" bees are the same, or even similar.

 

However...

If for some reason I need new bees, I will try and trap swarms. Most likely not more than one generation away from imported bees.

If that isn't likely to be sufficient I will buy package bees from California. I have had good success with those. The last time I did that was 2023. That queen is still going strong, and so are her daughters. 2 years is pretty good for a queen here. Most are superceded or swarm at about 1 year old.

I hear the localization idea, but I am very skeptical. When I first heard about "meat bees" it made sense to me. But having watched it for a couple of years I am mostly convinced that "meat bees" is an indication of sick bees trying to stay alive by making new bees. The bees are no different.

Reading Seeley's experiment with small hives pretty much convinced me. Of 24 colonies of California Italians with locally adapted mites and viruses in an isolated setting, not more than 2 were 'meat bees".

And colonies of "meat bees" appear to dwindle while continuing to brood. Colonies of honey bees shrink less without adding bees.

So I have tentatively concluded that localization is irrelevant. It might make sense in Europe where bees are native and have had a long time to adapt to the local climate and forage.

My California "carniolans" have shown more visible VSH behavior than any of the other bees I have had. Bees are getting better. Selection is happening.

My current thinking is that localization is only effective in random non-native areas if it results in less agessive mites and less virulent viruses.

 

So I have tentatively concluded that localization is irrelevant.

As soon as you attempt low-maintenance approaches - the localization becomes very much relevant.

But sure - did you know they have a hyppo in the Madison Zoo?.
He is doing very well.
For him the localization is irrelevant.

See it?

 

Thinking is missing from the process my friend....

Keep in mind, all the adaptations are already in place - 100 years can NOT wipe out 1,000,00 years of pre-exisiting evolution.
The already embedded adaptive traits just need to be applied properly.

Keep the northern-trending bees where they belong.
Keep the southern-trending bees where they belong.
Keep the desert bees where they belong.

Your broad statement seems to support that every bee contains all the adaptations of previous milliions of years; that if needed may be recovered from stored data.
That may or may not be true in the population at large but when you narrow the field you potentially leave behind something previously (and possibly in the future) valuable. Best be darned sure you maintain the whole! Data decays or can be lost entirely.

I sense lots of circular reasoning and wishfull thinking (is that synonymous with dreaming) and lucid dreaming! That last one is tricky and the owner does not properly identify it!

 

Your broad statement seems to support that every bee contains all the adaptations of previous milliions of years;

Clearly, the Italian bees can not have adaptation for the survival in Northern forests.
Should go without repeated saying.


Historically the bee adapted to the local conditions and have done so for the notorious millions of years.

 

We all have a tendency toward magical thinking.

Armchair science.