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Too alate to breed queens?

2K views 7 replies 6 participants last post by  GregB  
#1 ·
I live in the intermountain West and have had bees for 11 years, althouh this is my third year of beeing a serious beek. I resisted rearing my own queens, mostly because grafting seemed to be more than I wanted to tkae on.
Now I have come across the Nicot system, and that seems to be something I can handle.
I have one hive that has a superqueen. That hive is thriving, producing, gentle enough, and I would like to preserve those genetics.
Summer where I live can be hot, high 90s and low 100s in high summer, dry and with a serious dearth. Fall is not as productive as in more temperate areas.

My questions are simple: is it too late to consider rearing queens this year? What do I have to consider in terms of weather, temperature, nectar flow?

Thanks in advance for shring your experience.

Stu
 
#3 ·
I live in the intermountain West and have had bees for 11 years, althouh this is my third year of beeing a serious beek. I resisted rearing my own queens, mostly because grafting seemed to be more than I wanted to tkae on.
Now I have come across the Nicot system, and that seems to be something I can handle.
Hello Stu.

Queen-rearing really isn't about grafting or nothing - or the Nicot-system or nothing - there are many ways of creating queen-cells.

For example: if you take a partially-drawn foundationless comb and insert it into the brood-nest of the colony of your choice; leave it there for (say) 3 days; then pull that comb out and insert it into whatever queenless environment you have available (Cloake Board/ J-C queenless starter-finisher, etc) - then this is the sort of result which is frequently created:



Nothing very special about that comb - just a good handful of natural queen-cells ready to be cut out and donated (and you haven't even knackered the comb, as it will continue to be drawn-out after the cells have been removed).

So what skills have been demanded of the beekeeper ? Absolutely none - the bees have done everything. All the beekeeper has done is move a few things around, and at the right time, but that's all. If memory serves, there were maybe ten or so recoverable cells on that comb - hardly a world-beater, and you certainly wouldn't want to attempt making a living by doing this sort of thing - but - if all you want is a few queen-cells to preserve genetics and so forth, then nothing could be simpler.

If you have drones around - then sure, there's still time to raise queens.
LJ
 
#4 ·
.......
So what skills have been demanded of the beekeeper ? Absolutely none - the bees have done everything. ........
........
If you have drones around - then sure, there's still time to raise queens.
LJ
It is not late whatsoever to raise queens.
Where I am, even late August is not late as the drones are still flying.

I just keep agreeing with LJ.
People just keep start throwing around too many fancy terms and over-complicate this (starter/finisher/blah/blah/...).
:)

If you are a small-scale homesteader type (like myself), why complicate things?
No need.

Do you need to produce hundreds of queens?
No.

Do you need to produce tens of queens?
No. All you need is about 5-10 new queens at the very max (just so to have a couple of spares).

How many hives do you target for per-annually?
Probably no more than five-ten. Likely fewer even.

I am both too lazy AND busy get into all that grafting/queen raising/whatever stuff.
This is because I am slammed with lots of crap coming at me all at once (mid-life).

All I did this year was I created two strong queen-less hives by fly-back splitting (did the best I could - killed one of the older queens in the process as it looks).
Guess what, out of the two surviving hives, I now have eight hives, potentially.
Seven new queens are pending after bees will do their own selection - this is all I need for my homesteading. Plenty.

My own drones are in good supply also, due to splitting in late June/early July.

All skills required was to 1)make the splits and 2)(!!optionally!!) carefully cut/paste a couple of QCs (so to distribute them move evenly across the splits).
I keep thanking the bees for doing all the work for me (well, in exchange for the real estate I rent to them, hehe.. ).

Just stay low tech.
KISS ways really do work.
 
#5 ·
It is tougher to have good cells built during a dearth. During that time serious queen rearers are feeding to compensate.

Raising your own queens from good hives should be done by everyone. But that should be done as part of a yearly plan. I like to raise my queens in late May, June and part of July. The flow is on and the quality is good, and the nucs can build for winter. I would recommend this time of year. At the same time swarm control is achieved. I have a few cells being raised now but the bulk of the work is done.

Also step up the game and select for mite resistance along with some neighbors. Start building resilience into local bee populations.
 
#6 · (Edited)
Right.
So, right now, in WA (OP state) is not late.
Even August is still fine IF one needs an urgent replacement OR a backup queen for any old reason.
Supplemental feeding is fine - a minor issue.
The major issue is - availability of local drones.
Any queen is better than no queen.

Yes, queen rearing/splitting/expansion - these are all pre-planned and thought out activities based on your own strategy (not some random knee-jerk reactions) with the main technical goal being - selecting proper timing for every operation.

So, the proper timing is the major factor.
For me this boils down to nailing the sweet spot in my own summer timeframe to have everything at once (good flow - my own drones - lots of bees - swarm prevention - meaning-full brood break for mite control). This coincides with Mel D's. proposed timeline - late June/early July.

Queen rearing technique itself - a minor factor (KISS approach works fine for a small scale keeper).
 
#7 ·
Too late to raise queens likely not, use those queen to start nucs? maby maby not check with the locals.

however were I am right now its hot, dry, no flow and even with feed my cells builders arn't wanting to work... just had 2 sets of graphs with 0 take....

The flip side is its much easier to raise queens when the bees are in the mood, IE swarm season, It might be a better choice to wait till you have have a better chance of success, (edit lharder beat me) I find queen rearing can be as frustrating as it can be rewarding

LJ shows you some great alternatives
Old timer has a nice guide on cuting strips https://beesource.com/resources/ele...es/elements-of-beekeeping/raising-queen-cells-without-grafting-cut-cell-method/ I did strips for a number of years, but used fishing line to wrap the strip to the bar so I could do everything hive side https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B1hLGJYX3QKDU3dXS0JkeUNRWlU/view page 28

All I did this year was I created two strong queen-less hives by fly-back splitting (did the best I could - killed one of the older queens in the process as it looks).
Guess what, out of the two surviving hives, I now have eight hives, potentially.
Seven new queens are pending after bees will do their own selection - this is all I need for my homesteading. Plenty.
I would argue that's splits, not queen rearing. What you did was perfect in your situation, that's exactly how I got my numbers up last year.
but when the time hits to make stock improvements or bring traits back in, you need to be able to mass propagate good genetics. By F-2 F3 there is a massive amount of drift ... F2 has only 25% of the original genetics F-3 12.5%
Its no wonder re queening with purchased queens form a breeder has long been the standard.
while genetic deveristy is often harped on, bees go deverce to a fault, constantly trying new combinations and then ( in nature) ruthless culling.. 85% or so of the feral queens that are here today, wont be this time next year. It takes that kind of pressure to maintain the advrage performance.
As a beekeeper we do all sorts of things that increase colony survival, and we want traits beyond survival, as such we need to aply strong selection pressure in the form of re queening with select stock every few years. doesn't matter to the BYBK with 2-4 hives, but when you have your numbers up a bit, say 15-20 the need becomes apariant, especially when you split a hive 4 ways, spit those nucs 4 ways, come next summer a lot of splits made from the 8 nucs that over wintered end up with undesired traits (Mite candy, chalk, aggression, just won't build up etc) and you find your self in need of 20-30 "better" queens
 
#8 ·
I would argue that's splits, not queen rearing
Technically - yes. Splits.
The side-affect of which is - bees are doing some queen rearing for me.

I only made sure to have the bees I want to sustain, to be queen producing (not some caught package swarm - those are throw away material).
That's the homesteader-type queen raising - OTS way.
Still, not random, but rather deliberate approach.

And again, I made sure to hold out to have my locality flooded by my own drones the best I could (so to fight off the flood of imported package drones).
The idea is that I want my own bees to cross-pollinate each other to a degree possible.

I can see the F2, F3, FX.. logic working.
However, I will want to depend on the external selective pressure to just work its magic for me.
All I want to do - create and maintain a high density surviving and cross-pollinating stock within my own sector and crowd out all the imports.
That's the theory based on what I am able to do.