[Rick 1456]

I'm curious if introducing EOs can/does have an effect on the hives pheromone chemistry. Most of the information I have seems suggests that it is rather sensitively balanced. How little does the balance have to be off before "things" start happening.
I ask this because I used EOs, in a former life, and had the Queen superceded three times. Stopped the EOs, and the queen stayed. May be a coincidence. Admittedly, I was using an "internet formula" with Wintergreen. I convinced myself what I was doing did it. No more for me. I still have that hive. Thriving, no treatments. Made splits. Anyway. The hive chemistry seems to be left out in these discussions, I'm asking should it?

 

[Adam Foster Collins]

Robert,

I'd say that a great number of people using EO's are using Lemongrass oil and wintergreen or mint of some kind, in a variation of Honey-B-Healthy. You're saying that those Red Thyme and oregano are the way to go. That's counter to a lot of people.

Adam

 

[rrussell6870]

Rick, you are exactly right about the aromatic properties of eo's having a major effect on the pheromone levels within colonies... again, timing has a great deal to do with the effects that they can have, good or bad... sounds like you caught the problem and succeeded...

Adam, I understand that completely, and to be honest, my blunt approach does hurt sales a bit... but my intention is to teach better bee keeping practices and help to move our industry back into a better era of healthier, more productive bees... good bee health doesn't come from a bottle, it comes from the plants that they forage upon... most would be amazed at the reduction of winter losses that they would have if the stopped feeding and selected treatments that were specifically set to address an issue instead of throwing a mix of low doses of treatments at the problem... this doesn't completely address the issue, thus the surviving organisms are able to adjust to each compound and become resistant to them making future applications even more ineffective...

The true issue with eo's is that they are capable of being used as a solution, but if too many are used at once, the dose of each is lower and the mites and diseases will just get stronger...

This is where my issue with compounds like hbh comes from... none of these oils are available in nature, so their presence in a hive of bees is not a natural one... a simply treatment with red thyme oil and oil of oregano will rid a colony of mites quite quickly when used correctly... if the treatments are rotated each season, the mites and diseases will not be able to adjust to their effects, thus there is no need to add additional compounds that would not be naturally available...

Lastly, there is the issue of acclimation... as most are trying to get their bees to adjust to the environments of their local, the presence of compounds that are not found in their location will only set that back that much further... there are natural beneficial enzymes that change in every environment... the bees need to become adjusted to the forage of the area and these forages will effect those enzymes... through time, they will adjust and become much more healthy, but not if the enzymes are kept in a state of flux due to unnatural compounds.

Hope that all makes sense! I am on a boat, so its hard to post. Lol.

 

[Adam Foster Collins]

...my intention is to teach better bee keeping practices and help to move our industry back into a better era of healthier, more productive bees...

I believe that, which is why I am taking the time to write to you here. I understand what you are saying, and have been guilty myself of misuse of EO's in that I fed a lot of Peppermint, thyme and lemongrass oils to the bees last fall, only to find the bees overrun with mites. In the Fall, the ground outside both of my hives was crawling with hundreds of bees with DWV, and the population was way down going into the cold months. I ended up using oxalic vapor as the cold set in, and the dead mites looked like sand on the landing boards. Thousands of them. One colony died in March, the other made it through with a cluster the size of a grapefruit.

So where do I go from here? I now have two strong colonies, as the overwintered one has built up and I got a nuc in June. I have been checking drone comb and removing a certain amount this year and have only seen a couple of mites total so far, after examining hundreds of drone larvae. How do I get from here to next summer without getting overrun with mites again? Is there a place for thyme oil there? And should it be "red" thyme oil? If so, why?

Thanks,

Adam

 

[rrussell6870]

Sounds like you are already heading towards some more issues... even though you haven't found many in the drone brood, I would wager that an ether roll of your foragers would reveal an average of 5-9 mites... being in Halifax, your climate shouldn't allow for such a production of varroa in such a short amount of time... so my first concern would be where these mites are breeding and how can you limit their transfer or stop them at the source... my second concern would be what type of bees you are keeping...

What other bee keepers are in your area and/or how many feral colonies would you estimate in the past three years as opposed to this year?

 

[Adam Foster Collins]

...What other bee keepers are in your area and/or how many feral colonies would you estimate in the past three years as opposed to this year?

This last question doesn't make sense to me.

Halifax is zone 6 in terms of climate. The bees are mutts that have bred here over the last 10 years. The nucs I have bought are locally raised with locally raised queens. It is difficult to find honeybees in the flowers if you're looking for them here. There aren't many. There are far more bumblebees around, and there are several types of those. We do have a lot of honeybees in Nova Scotia, but most are in the agricultural regions and I am in the downtown core of Halifax. There are likely very few feral colonies here in the city, and of the handful of other colonies kept locally, most have come from the same sources. We have a closed border for bees in Nova Scotia. There are plenty of imported queens, all coming from Hawaii, Australia and New Zealand. However, the guy I buy from sells to most people around here.

Mites over wintered with the bees. The oxalic doesn't kill them all. I saw mites on the bees in the winter even after killing thousands.

Adam

 

[rrussell6870]

The bees are mutts that have bred here over the last 10 years. The nucs I have bought are locally raised with locally raised queens. It is difficult to find honeybees in the flowers if you're looking for them here. There aren't many. There are far more bumblebees around, and there are several types of those. We do have a lot of honeybees in Nova Scotia, but most are in the agricultural regions and I am in the downtown core of Halifax. There are likely very few feral colonies here in the city, and of the handful of other colonies kept locally, most have come from the same sources. We have a closed border for bees in Nova Scotia. There are plenty of imported queens, all coming from Hawaii, Australia and New Zealand. However, the guy I buy from sells to most people around here.

You nailed it, but I think you thought that would be going a different direction. Lol. Genetic diversity is most likely the answer to you troubles. It has been many many years since I have seen a hive that had that many mites, and the only ones that I did were in an operation that was pretty well isolated from other bees, had the same supplier using the routine methods of grafting from one colony, putting minimal concern into drone control/production, as well as keeping up with which lineages were being promoted, how often and so on.. the end effect was total loss... an entire operation so badly inbred that they were doomed to fall victim to almost any threat that came their way...

I know that your supplier is very likely a great person and a great bee keeper, and none of this would be their fault, it just happens due to methods that have been taught for so long and the situational effects of an area. This season would be too late to try a fresh lineage from say David (Daykel) in new Zealand... but that is ok because first you will need to address the mite load within the area itself, then you can test a new lineage to see if the mites do not seem to stop being a problem after a few years... again, please do not misunderstand me here, I am not saying that you have poorly raised or selected bees, but the lack of genetic diversity within the specific lineages of the bees in your particular area would be my first hurdle to cross when attempting to better my bees...

Do you know what kind of issues the others in your area are facing with mites?

 

[josethayil]

If you are able to get queens from New Zealand, David from Daykel Apiaries will be a good place. He does keep a wide range of Carniolans and have a closed mating program and each line is maintained seperately. This allows to have a great genetic diversity.

I buy queens from him and all of them have performed well so far. Definitely the most varroa tolerant stock available in New Zealand at the moment.

Bee Research team at Plant And Food, Hamilton(NZ) has also developed a new line of varroa tolerant stock of Italians and released it to the industry this year. They are still under evaluation, so not available for sale at the moment.

 

[Adam Foster Collins]

Others in my area are facing similar issues with mites.

The person raising the nucs isn't so isolated. He is in an agricultural area, and there are a lot of other beekeepers around him. I am sure, however that he does not run a "strict breeding program". He's not a breeder per se. He just sells nucs each spring. He's a small operation, with between 30 and 50 colonies depending on the year.

Nova Scotia's importation of queens is a provincially-run operation, and hobbyist beeks aren't having much of an influence on where they come from. We don't have tracheal mites here, and we don't have small hive beetle. Cape Breton Island, which constitutes the northern portion of Nova Scotia does not have varroa. On the other hand, small hive beetle has been found in shipments from Hawaii for the last two years, so it's only a matter of time because we're still importing from there...

So really working much with specific genetic stock is quite difficult for someone like me to do here. Any other approaches?

Adam

 

[G B]

Dr. russell I have been using e-o for two years now. Would you mind elaborating on the mix of thyme and oregano you are using? I too fear I may have been over using them in the past. I did 24 hour sticky board traps last fall and had a high of 48 mite, with most of the hives in the 12-25 mite range for the 48 hour period. I have just put hopguard on my hives in colorado as its supposed to be ok to use with suppers on. I am working to raise my colony count to commercial levels so I wont be harvesting any honey anyway, just thought it would be better on the bees. Any info you may bee able to pass on would be greately appreciated.

 

[hilreal]

I used thymolated syrup last year whenever I needed to feed following directions on Randy Oliver's site: http://scientificbeekeeping.com/
Though his data did not support varoa suppression, I only lost 10% of my hives compared to our club averarage of 50%. Not a controlled study by any means and only one year so take it for what it is worth. Heard about the oregano oil this week from Dr. Gussman at the HAS meetings and might give it a try also. Had planned to use MAQS this fall but getting a little concerned about reports of brood and queen issues.

 

[G B]

hilreal I feel the same way about the MAQS