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Is there a reason why you guys arent looking at Wisconsin VSH bees? There are producers that sing the same tune of localisation and have stock that mates and overwinters there.
Well I don't buy many bees. Bought a package in 2023, bought two in 2020 I think. Maybe 3 total before that. Not planning to buy more. Most years I give away bees.

Not interested in buying a NUC. Packages from Wisconsin aren't available in April. I don't run standard equipment so standard frames are a nuisance.

There are a lot of TF beekeepers on beesource, but in the general population they are rare.

We would all like resistant bees of course. But it seems to me there are no bees resistant enough to make much of a difference.

I may be wrong about that. I am watching my neighbor @GregB. When he can go TF I will try it. So far it looks to me like it won't work in my setup. I need high survival.
 
Discussion starter · #102 ·
... but in the general population they are rare.
In the vein of the original post, Dr. Martin has studied this question and determined that between 20 and 25% of UK beekeepers are TF (see attached).

I suspect if the question were studied here in the US it would yield similar results.
 

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In the vein of the original post, Dr. Martin has studied this question and determined that between 20 and 25% of UK beekeepers are TF (see attached).
I'd treat that figure with a HUGE pinch of salt ...

"We gathered 2,872 beekeeper responses from an estimated 30,000 UK beekeepers belonging to 242 bee-associations in the winter of 2020/21."

So - info from less than 10% of those who a) belong to bee-clubs, and b) were sufficiently interested in this issue to respond. But how many UK beekeepers don't belong to bee-clubs, and how many of those who do consider TF to be so much wishful thinking and therefore couldn't be arsed to respond ? By definition, no-one knows ... (How questionnaires are worded becomes significant - 'no response' could mean all sorts of things)

Bee-clubs/ associations with their membership secretaries and chairmens and all that stuff (usually with personality conflicts thrown in) - not to mention peer pressure to adopt 'conventional' styles of beekeeping ... it ain't for everyone.
Certainly not for Yours Truly ... and I don't know anybody around here who does belong to a club/association.
LJ
 
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I'd treat that figure with a HUGE pinch of salt ...

"We gathered 2,872 beekeeper responses from an estimated 30,000 UK beekeepers belonging to 242 bee-associations in the winter of 2020/21."

So - info from less than 10% of those who a) belong to bee-clubs, and b) were sufficiently interested in this issue to respond. But how many UK beekeepers don't belong to bee-clubs, and how many of those who do consider TF to be so much wishful thinking and therefore couldn't be arsed to respond ? By definition, no-one knows ... (How questionnaires are worded becomes significant - 'no response' could mean all sorts of things)

Bee-clubs/ associations with their membership secretaries and chairmens and all that stuff (usually with personality conflicts thrown in) - not to mention peer pressure to adopt 'conventional' styles of beekeeping ... it ain't for everyone.
Certainly not for Yours Truly ... and I don't know anybody around here who does belong to a club/association.
LJ
TRUE; Not every Beek answers surveys or attends, much less belongs, to an association of beekeepers (or an 'on-line' forum).

In my own personal experience (just mine)...there's too many 'know it alls' with too many preconceived notions, admonishments and judgements.

There are just too many variables, but it still makes good winter discussion none the less.... :)
 
imo; The HONEYBEE is the 'only' solution to varroa.

Will we humans accept that basic reality or are we (and our bees ) doomed to fail/fall further?

The lack of any historical perspective is breaking my brain :oops:

Clear evidence shows humans are prone to accept nonsense over common sense, fantasy over reality....so....:unsure: I'm on the fence...
 
For shame ye doubters of The power of positive thinking.:LOL:

It is very easy to skew the significance of surveys. It is of value to examine how representative they are of the whole, when the sample size is a small percentage. If the purveyors have investment of some sort, doubly so.
I am not suggesting that the responders skewed the results but I would want to closely examine whether they had some isolated enablers such as isolation or a very stringent IPM routine, not likely to be widely followed.

The devil is often in the details.
 
In the vein of the original post, Dr. Martin has studied this question and determined that between 20 and 25% of UK beekeepers are TF (see attached).

I suspect if the question were studied here in the US it would yield similar results.
Probably Higher. By definition if everyone in the US decided to STOP treating today. We would all be TF. That certainly doesn't means that the bees themselves have any traits related to survival. I like to think of myself as a collector of resistant traits with the hope of not treating. Anyone can pull the cork on treatments and call themselves TF. Now that we have assay's available to us. We need to measure and identify traits and propagate. Simply wishing on a bright star and magic to happen is not enough. At the other end of the spectrum we should be requeening hives with low or no ability to survive.
 
Discussion starter · #110 ·
So - info from less than 10%...
This sampling size is about the same as our US honey bee surveys, and the UK survey benefits from having more beekeepers participating as a percentage of the overall number of beekeepers nationally:

‘For the 2023-2024 survey, 1,652 beekeepers provided valid responses from across the United States. These beekeepers collectively managed 337,134 colonies on October 1, 2023, representing 13% of the estimated 2.51 million managed honey-producing colonies estimated to be in the country in 2023 (USDA NASS, 2024).’
 
I have brought Russians in every 4-6 years for almost 20 years.
The traits I like seem to fade away, However this last time it took longer, considering a few swarms escaped, maybe the local is shifting.
How do you like your Russians?
I have thought about them, but I need gentle bees in mt location.
As near as I can tell, not all "Russian" bees are the same, or even similar.
 
How do you like your Russians?
I have thought about them, but I need gentle bees in mt location.
As near as I can tell, not all "Russian" bees are the same, or even similar.
pre russian I was losing > 50% post russian worst was 20 ish percent to winter loss.
they seem better at being frugal, not brooding in winter, and fast build up.

no not the same, I try 4-6 queens from 3 or 4 places say every other to every 3rd year, then go back to the ones that did the best in your locale or have the features you prefer.
I started with "survival" then picked production, then calmness.
winter culls the few that cannot survive these winters here. (first) year
split from the most productive 1/2 ,, replace queens in the worst 1/4 (second year)
re queen the mean and runny ones. (second or 3rd year)
4th year get a new batch. base is 40-60 hives so 10% input every 3 ish years.
i've had 6 of 6 winter and 2 of 6 winter, so it varies. clean starts, start big enough to be 8x8 for first winter.

combination of Varroa tolerance and north survival.
 
Except in honey bees we have the highest rate of recombination of any animal - when subjected to Natural Selection, heterozygosity and recombination work to increase the frequency of the alleles suitable to survival - thus an 'additive' accumulation of the appropriate genes.

This is why Tom noted that the resurgence of feral bees would be our 'tell' that Natural Selection is bringing the appropriate alleles forward.
True enough.

The mean may shift toward more or less resistance.

The standard deviation may become larger or smaller as the number of variations available for each gene that has resistant variants increases or decreases.

But the distribution will be Gaussian. It is inescapable.

Convolution of a number of distributions of nearly any shape results in a gaussian distribution.

So the goal of selective breeding is to increase the mean (average tolerance) while reducing the standard deviation.

To do that, you need to reduce the number of variants of genes that affect the desired result - getting rid of the bad variants.

You also need to increase the number of good variants. A bee with 200 gene variants that code for resistance (200 locations) is more resistant than a bee with 100 gene variants that code for resistance (100 locations).

At the same time, you need to maintain as many variants as possible everywhere else to avoid inbreeding.

You want bees that are effectively partially inbred in very specific ways.

One challenge is that the offspring of an outcross with a non-resistant drone will produce some offspring which are fully resistant compared with the mother, and some that are fully non-resistant with the father. But those are the tails of the distribution. Most will be about half-resistant.

But it gets worse.

Imagine that you have your adequately resistant stock. The average bee is about 1 standard deviation above the mean of the resistance needed to be TF. And imagine that you have done this while maintaining diversity generally, so that you can mate your queens with your drones without the problem of inbreeding. You have maybe 20 surviving matrilines in your population by careful selection not just for resistance but for diverse resistance.

You sell mated queens. Their daughter workers are good bees. TF!

BUT

Your customers raise queens from your queens. Open mated with non-resistant drones.

On average, those queens after mating will produce daughters that have half of the resistant genes that their mothers had. And they will be highly variable. But the only way to figure out how good they are is to try them. Some will be quite good. Others quite bad. But by the time they figure out which is which, your customers will have done a lot of mite monitoring and lost a few colonies. Not something the average backyarder or commercial beekeeper has the time or inclination to do.

The model that works is to requeen with your queens in every case that a queen is needed.

Over time, if enough people do that, the effect of the drones produced by those queens will improve the quality of the local bees pretty much everywhere.

However, it will be expensive. And beekeepers are an independent lot,

The only way this can work, I think, is first to make the resistant queens available at no cost. Second to make the use of other queens illegal. Third to start a public service / propaganda campaign explaining how good people use the good bees, and bad people don't.

More practically, you need to get people who are politically connected to invest in your bee breeding experiment. It would be a natural avenue for the pharmaceutical companies to expand into. They are good at making money off of stuff like that.

You could even enforce this. Genetic testing of drones from a hive will show conclusively if it has "your" queen. If not, the colony would be destroyed, and the keeper fined and/or imprisoned.

Monsanto is famous for using these methods on people who violate their roundup-ready patents...

How do YOU spell dystopia?
 
pre russian I was losing > 50% post russian worst was 20 ish percent to winter loss.
they seem better at being frugal, not brooding in winter, and fast build up.

no not the same, I try 4-6 queens from 3 or 4 places say every other to every 3rd year, then go back to the ones that did the best in your locale or have the features you prefer.
I started with "survival" then picked production, then calmness.
winter culls the few that cannot survive these winters here. (first) year
split from the most productive 1/2 ,, replace queens in the worst 1/4 (second year)
re queen the mean and runny ones. (second or 3rd year)
4th year get a new batch. base is 40-60 hives so 10% input every 3 ish years.
i've had 6 of 6 winter and 2 of 6 winter, so it varies. clean starts, start big enough to be 8x8 for first winter.

combination of Varroa tolerance and north survival.
Hard to do with a goal of 4 to 6 colonies.

Makes sense with 60.
 
We LOVE our Russian honeybees....They have been gentle since hiving and after zillions of splits. They get an underserved bad rap imo.

Of course what we have are really the great, great grands from 4-6 years ago.... AKA; "Northern Wisconsin Survivor MUTTS" :)
So when am I getting a queen from you, DB?

You've been toting your local bees for how long now?
Plenty long.
 
Discussion starter · #118 ·
The mean may shift toward more or less resistance.
That's the idea - Natural Selection makes the alleles that are beneficial in a specific context less rare, increasing the amount of the correct alleles that are brought forward:


And this appears to differ based on genetic composition. The pre-print that @little_john shared from Steve Riley (attached) begins to unpack some of this for us.
 

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If there is much difference between "carniolan" and "italian" package bees I'm not observant enough to really see it.
Just like with the Russians - the Carnis better be from few select vendors (I don't know what these vendors are - I don't care to keep track).

Most so-called Carnies are Carni-named fake mutts.

In the past I had a case of the "carnis" from a person who swore and insisted she bought Carnis.
They were not even close to the true-spec Carnies.

It was a bunch of random, rainbow bees produced by openly-mated whatever queen.
Sold as Carnis.
Typical.

Most likely, any significant difference between these mutts sold under "C" and "I" labels you will not see.
 
The problem with surveys is selection bias.

Especially if reporting rates are low.

I suspect that the number of TF beekeepers in the US is low, because

Most people live in developed areas with lots of agricultural chemicals and a fairly high density of hives in their local area. Those people cannot reasonably be TF in a sustained way by any reasonable definition.

One local beekeeper in western Milwaukee county is TF with 100 hives. He harvests all of his honey and buys new package bees every year. But I don't think he counts.

The migratory nature of US beekeeping creates an environment where virulence of the mite and its viruses is unchecked wherever the local bee population is affected by the migratory trade.

There are no indigenous bees.

The geographic extent of the US makes the package bee business viable. US wintering conditions vary from tropical to sub-arctic. Most other places (for example the UK) have a reasonably homogenous climate. So moving bees around is much easier here. The difference between the Americans and the British is the Americans think a hundred years is a long time. The British think a hundred miles is a long ways.
 
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