>Just a question for all. I'm a beginner and am planning on starting 4 hives this spring with a friend. My question is since I'll be starting with zero drawn combs, would I be smarter to buy only 4.9mm foundation to start on and stay with.

If you want small cell. Absolutely. Just buy 4.9mm. Anything else is a setback.

>Or is there something I’m missing?

I don't think so.

> Is it a lot harder to get the bees’ to start with small foundation?

Not at all.

>I see Dadant’s sells 4.9mm foundation but they say it’s for the experienced beekeeper.

I have no idea why they say that. I wish they wouldn't. It's much easier to START them on 4.9mm than to start them on 5.4mm and then try to regress them. The standard "Dee Lusby" method for regressing an established hive is to do a shakedown and put them on 4.9mm. Your package IS a shakedown. The only hard part of regressing is getting them off of the large cell comb without wasting brood or stressing them out. Yours will already BE off the large cell comb. They are a package with no comb and that's the perfect way to start regressing.

To reiterate. If you start them on 4.9mm you are one step ahead on regression. If you start them on 5.4mm you are one step behind on regression. You just missed a golden opportunity to skip one full shakdown.

My GUESS is that Dadant thinks that you'll buy the small cell foundation, not monitor mites, not treat for mites, lose your hive and be dissapointed. They think it's too complicated to try to explain "regression".

You should still learn to monitor mites. You MAY have to do something to keep them under control until the bees are regressed. Drone magnets (a frame of drone comb removed after it's capped and frozen) or powdered sugar or something. But if you feed more 4.9mm foundtion in until the center of the brood nest is 4.9mm or smaller, and you keep monitoring, I'm betting you'll find the mite problem will go away at that point.

Regression is simply the fact that the first comb the larger bees draw is probably not going to be 4.9mm. It will probably be 5.1mm or so. The smaller bees from that will probably draw smaller cells that will probably fall near the 4.9mm size. The next generation will draw even smaller comb. The "target" size is 4.9mm for the core of the brood nest. In my experience they won't draw that small for all the honey storage areas, but they will for the core of the broodnest if you let them.

 

So from what I understand, for the brood I should go ahead and use the 4.9mm foundation, but will I then replace it after a while so they will keep reducing its size.

Now a question on supers, if you’re starting from scratch like I am, would you use plastic or wax foundation? And I’m assuming for this use the normal size super foundation.

Cam

 

Why not just go with the Pierco plastic foundation? Its durable stuff, incredibly easy to install, and supposed to be smaller than standard foundation.

 

>So from what I understand, for the brood I should go ahead and use the 4.9mm foundation, but will I then replace it after a while so they will keep reducing its size.

Yes, the smaller bees reared on the smaller comb will build smaller comb.

>Now a question on supers, if you’re starting from scratch like I am, would you use plastic or wax foundation?

What do you want to do with the honey? Crush and strain? Cut comb honey? Extract? If you only have four hives, I'd do cut comb and crush and strain. In order to do that, I'd use 7/11 thin surplus from Walter Kelly. That way you won't need a queen excluder because the queen won't like the size (5.7mm or so, too small for drone, too large for worker). Or you can use all 4.9mm and hope you get more nice drawn 4.9mm comb. Havning drawn comb is very nice for starting new packages etc.

> And I’m assuming for this use the normal size super foundation.

Only if you want to use an excluder. I wouldn't.

>Why not just go with the Pierco plastic foundation? Its durable stuff, incredibly easy to install, and supposed to be smaller than standard foundation.

Pierco is about 5.2 to 5.3mm depending on if it's the frames or the sheets and if it's the medium or the Deeps. The deep frames are about 5.2. To handle the mites you need 4.9mm, not 5.2. 5.2 will be a nice start and will probably contribute to somewhat less Varroa, but it has not been reported to solve the Varroa problems by anyone that I know of.

Natural comb:
http://www.bushfarms.com/images/47mmCombMeasurement.jpg

Rite Cell:
http://www.bushfarms.com/images/RiteCell54Measurment.jpg

Standard wax:
http://www.bushfarms.com/images/Dadant54mmMeasured.JPG

4.9mm:
http://www.bushfarms.com/images/Dadant49mmMeasured.JPG

Pierco medium sheet:
http://www.bushfarms.com/images/PiercoMediumSheet52mmMeasured.jpg

Pierco Deep Frame:
http://www.bushfarms.com/images/PiercoDeepFrame525Measured.JPG

I don't have a picture but Pierco medium frames are about 5.3mm if I remember. They are measurably larger cells than the deep frames.

 

Well even though I’m only going to have 4 hives I have a friend that is reasonably close who still has an extractor so I think we’d like to extract. So I assuming I’d need to use wired foundation or plastic. Am I wrong there? Is there an advantage to small cell in the super besides the obvious one of having comb for use in expansion?

 

>Well even though I’m only going to have 4 hives I have a friend that is reasonably close who still has an extractor so I think we’d like to extract. So I assuming I’d need to use wired foundation or plastic. Am I wrong there? Is there an advantage to small cell in the super besides the obvious one of having comb for use in expansion?

No. Though admittedly I'm a little new to the theory of natural cell sizes, but provided you use an excluder it doesn't matter at all. Probably wouldn't even matter without an extractor, but without the queen might get up there to lay eggs at which point you would be losing out on the benifits of your new nicely drawn 4.9mm comb.

 

Err, extractor = excluder my mistake >_< and no edit function as far as I've found.

 

I'd be interested to hear the results anyone has had with starting a package on SC foundation
I started my first hive last spring on Pierco
six weeks later I discovered SC and wanted to switch them over
So first, I inserted a frame of SC foundation
the result was some kinda confused comb

http://www.drobbins.net/bee's/Dsc00776.jpg

I think the bee's reworked a lot of it since it was their first try at SC
next I tried just starter strips and had better luck

http://www.drobbins.net/bee's/Dsc00779.jpg

now that situation was somewhat different than starting a package straight off on SC foundation
My bee's were established on 2 boxes of Pierco before I started giving then something different

Next spring I'm gonna start a couple more packages
I was kind planing to use starter strips, but would like to hear from folks who've used SC
foundation

Dave

 

>so I think we’d like to extract. So I assuming I’d need to use wired foundation or plastic.

You can. You can also use plain wax and still extract. It's just harder to crush and strain with wired foundation or plastic. It's just as easy to extract either way.

>Am I wrong there? Is there an advantage to small cell in the super besides the obvious one of having comb for use in expansion?

I gave up on excluders about 29 years ago. So it's important to me that anywhere the queen decides to lay is natural sized cells or cells she won't want to lay in. So I use natural comb (foundationless with some kind of comb guide or starter strips) or small cell foundation everywhere. If you intend to use a honey excluder, errrr I mean a queen excluder, then maybe it doesn't matter.

Here's a foundationless frame full of honey before I exrtracted it:

http://www.bushfarms.com/images/FoundationlessDrawn.JPG

No foundation. No wires. No plastic. Natural sized cells.

The empty frame looks like this:

http://www.bushfarms.com/images/FoundationlessFrame2.JPG

 

I am also getting back to bees in the hobby mode. Had a dozen or two when I was a teenager(more than 50 years ago!). Am getting only two hives and want to go small cell. Can I Just cut strips from the dadant small cell and put them in the frames and let the bees do the rest. Didn't know anything when I had bees before and not much more now

Thanks
Ray Davis

 

Ray,
Yes, absolutely you can use starter strips. Unless you use at least one center frame of foundation to set the pattern, you'll want to monitor them to make sure they stay "on course." Even with the center frame, I've had them get off. Perhaps this is because frames are built to center Large-cell combs. 4.9mm (small cell or SC) is usually spaced closer on center.

But at any rate, both you and the others starting out, not only will get a faster regression by starting at the start, but by using the starter strips as you discribe, you'll save a nickle on foundation costs.

Once they have the first frames drawn, and you're ready for the next "step down", the new starter-stripped frames should stay on course better since they'll go betweeen two drawn combs.

Hope that makes sense.

Once that settles in to your mind, you might be interested in Joe Waggle's idea for getting the frames spaced correctly for SC (small cell). It calls for you simply inverting your hive body (now it's up side down) and putting the frames in. shifting the frames so that the end bars cross one another rather than line up as usual, you get the tighter spacing necessary for good SC comb. And you'll be able to get 11 frames in. I built a small frame of 1-by stock to place on the body, around the top bars to seal it all once the inner cover is put on.

Keep an eye on wayward comb and I think you'll do well Dell Gui.

Waya

 

>Can I Just cut strips from the dadant small cell and put them in the frames and let the bees do the rest.

Certainly. Before you give up treatments, I'd keep monitoring the mites and try to get another full turnover of brood comb. Until you get down to 4.9mm, I'd keep swaping it out. It will probably take a few years to get fully down to that size in the core of the brood nest. But it will help all along the way.

>Unless you use at least one center frame of foundation to set the pattern, you'll want to monitor them to make sure they stay "on course."

It does help to have something to get them in line. For the most part bees want to build parallel combs and one full sheet is helpful. A fully drawn comb is even better.

>Even with the center frame, I've had them get off. Perhaps this is because frames are built to center Large-cell combs. 4.9mm (small cell or SC) is usually spaced closer on center.

That is probably part of it.

>Once they have the first frames drawn, and you're ready for the next "step down", the new starter-stripped frames should stay on course better since they'll go betweeen two drawn combs.

And between two drawn combs in the brood nest, you don't even need the starter strip. Just put it between two combs pushed tightly together.

 

Thanks Waya and Micheal. When I had bees before everything I did was foundationless and all my bees were "feral" from bee trees and random swarms. It's a whole new world!

Ray

 

>Thanks Waya and Micheal. When I had bees before everything I did was foundationless and all my bees were "feral" from bee trees and random swarms. It's a whole new world!

Sounds like the world I'm in. Feral bees. Foundationless frames. So what's so new to you?

 

Micheal, guess I'm back to the future!

Ray Davis

 

Michael,

I've had my hives for a year now and I have had absolutely no evidence of mites. Lucky since I live in Kansas City. I'm wanting to switch to small cell so that I can help insure that I'm doing what I can to continue to protect them. I'm looking to increase my hives from 2 to 5 and am concerned about buying a package from just anywhere because I'm afraid I'll just be adding mites to my currently mite free hives. The questions I have is should I just split and hope for the best and/or buy a package and hope for the best? My next question is should I regress using strips or full frame 4.9 from Dadent?

Dave

 

>I've had my hives for a year now and I have had absolutely no evidence of mites.

How do you know? I'm not saying you're mistaken, just wondering how and how often you've checked. If you're truly mite-free, that's fantastic. There aren't many people in the continental US that can make that claim.

 

My guess is you have mites, but they have stayed under control so far. I wouldn't worry about keeping them mite free, since I don't think they are to start with nor is it likely they will stay that way, if they are.

But raising your own is always a great idea.

 

I've had my hives for a year now and I have had absolutely no evidence of mites.

That doesn't mean you don't have them, but with only one year of experience, you may not yet know what to look for. I have yet to see a hive that has no mites.

Since you have two established colonies and plenty of drawn comb, I would highly recommend splitting what you have.

You can start the process of retrogression by simply checkerboarding your broodnest and inserting foundationless frames in between the frames of drawn comb. As the foundationless frames are drawn, I would feed more foundationless frames into the center of the broodnest, and move the larger drawn comb up and out.

This process will retrogress all four colonies at nearly the same rate, depending of course, on the rate at which the splits recover.

 

I don't disagree I am certainly new and green but I have tried to check on the bees at least once per month during the cooler parts of the year I checked every 2 weeks and my friend and I would mull over the bees to see any evidence and didn't find any. My friend has her hive next to mine and she checked even more often than I so at least they aren't causing many problem if they are actually there. (Thank goodness)

Also, what do you guys/gals think about using strips v/s buying the whole foundation of 4.9?

Phoenix, do you have problems with your bee drawn comb falling apart when you check on your bees? I'm always afraid of it being too weak.
Dave

 

Do you have a SBB? Have you checked the tray for mites? Have you done a sugar roll? An ether roll? Uncapped some brood? Mites are VERY hard to see on the bees. Usually they are up under the joint of the segments. Here's some pictures of varroa on bees where they are more visible than usual:

http://www.bushfarms.com/images/Varroa2.jpg
http://www.bushfarms.com/images/Varroa3.jpg

 

In my most heavily infested hives, I'd typically only *see* 1 or 2 bees on a frame with visible mites on them. It was rare enough that even with my propensity for taking pictures, I never did manage to photograph a mite on a bee, despite trying.

 

This is helpful and I'll do a more accurate check as soon as it warms a bit. Hopefully, I won't find the dreaded monsters!

Dave

 

Phoenix, do you have problems with your bee drawn comb falling apart when you check on your bees? I'm always afraid of it being too weak.

I presume you are referring to foundationless frames, and if so, no my comb doesn't fall apart upon inspection. Our bees are much more intelligent than we give them credit for sometimes, as they are smart enough to know when to reinforce the comb in order to support the weight it must bear, in which case they will attach the comb to the sides and bottom of the frames they are filling with honey.

Of course you must handle your frames wisely if the comb has not been attached on the sides or bottom, at which time you MUST turn the top bar straight up and down prior to turning it to inspect the opposite side.

Brood frames are quite often left unattached, as a frame of brood is much lighter than a frame of honey, but the more waves of brood that have been raised in that frame the stiffer the comb becomes.

The only time I had any comb collapse was prior to my understanding of proper ventilation. Obviously the cooler the comb is the lesser the probability of collapse and the more weight it will support.

My colonies are 3 to 5 deeps high, and are still able to construct foundationless frames for comb honey in the top boxes without collapse.

 

Michael Bush
I ordered small cell from dadant and I was looking at it and I realised it was 4.9 mm is this ok I notice 4.7mm in your pictures... my other foundation is like 6.0 is that regular size ?
I noticed some pictures on another thread and they helped a lot, regarding my other Q's. But I did notice someone talking about no brood. I'm going to be starting a couple of packages on small cell (4.9)so no regression. And also 6 1/2 mediums in april. I noticed somewhere in the past one of your pictures had some pink foam board 1" thick, above the inner cover, I wish I had done that in nov to keep the babies warmer. My posts will make more sense as I grow in experience.

tks mac mcp