I stumbled across this site before last winter and built a couple of these for on my hives:

http://www.beebehavior.com/THSC_Unit.php

I added #8 hardware screening inside the boxes this spring and left them on the hives to add ventilation all summer.

Last winter was not a good test of them due to the mild winter, but I do think they were a big help during the coldest periods.

 

I stumbled across this site before last winter and built a couple of these for on my hives:

That looks pretty cool! I'm reluctant to experiment because I have only one hive.

 

Many things have been tried for absorbing moisture over the winter. Part of the problem, however, is that the bees continuously produce moisture when they burn honey to stay warm. The amount they produce during the winter is far more than you can absorb with any reasonable amount of material. It seems to work much better to let the moisture out the top than to try to absorb it.

 

It seems to work much better to let the moisture out the top than to try to absorb it.

Makes sense. Would you recommend something simple like shimming the top cover with popsicle sticks?

BTW, your website has been a big help. Thanks!

 

Mike, Do you reduce your entrances, or leave the full-width top entrance open?

Adam

 

 

View attachment 3105

 

i used a vent with a quiltbox full of sawdust last year and it worked great. It would be too much work and money for over 20 hives. I moved to migratory tops that can be used as bottom boards as well w/vent for this year.

 

trying to reinvent the wheel? i often wonder what makes so many new beekeepers imagine they can come up with a management plan that is better than the successful systems used for hundreds of years-before they make it through the first year. beekeeping must have a great appeal to optimists

 

trying to reinvent the wheel?

I wouldn't call it reinventing the wheel, per se. In my case, at least, I'm so green I'm not sure exactly what the wheels are. Combine that with an inclination to solve problems, and I'm bound to suggest something that's already been tried.

 

Before the advent of Expanded Poly Styrene, many of the oldtimers would place a moving screen over the top of the hive, and then an empty deep, and fill the empty deep with straw.

Crazy Roland

 

Mike: When I got started in beekeeping 65 years ago my father covered his hives (sides and top) in the winter with celotex and wraped with tar paper all tied with binder twine. I've always been an experimenter, and sometimes things do work better.

Splatt: I've tried a number of winterization approaches and am entering my third winter with the wood shavings on top. Each year I've reduced my winter losses and thus I think I'm headed in the right direction, IMHO. I'm just tweeking the wheel and I will always be an optomist.

Steve

 

Let the moisture out. Storing moisture is not a good idea. Once you've captured it what do you do w/ it? What happens when the storage medium is holding as much moisture as it can hold?

Venting is the best way to go. As it is in your own house.

 

Venting is the best way to go. As it is in your own house.

I like the analogy, and it makes sense.

It always used to amaze me growing up when in the fall I would see people cover their roof vents with plastic bags.

 

In past threads, some people have stated that they have had success using various materials to absorb moisture.

I use Homasote over my inner covers as an insulating and moisture absorbing material. I cut the Homasote slightly undersize to have the edges better exposed to the air. My inner covers are notch-down year round, and my top boxes have upper entrances drilled into them. In general, there has been very little moisture absorbed into the Homasote.

I sometimes put fondant on hives in January. I remove the Homasote and place the chunk of fondant over the center opening in the inner cover. The Homasote is then placed on top of the box that's added to insulate the "attic".

 

I tried using cedar shavings last year. It seems because I didn't have it vented enough above the shavings, that I had a big moisture issue and mold. Ounce I propped the top cover open, the moisture had a way to escape. You may want to try drilling large holes and screening them off so nothing sets up camp in there.

 

In most cases, I usually ignore the wheel comment. There's nothing wrong with experimenting and trying new things for yourself. Don't let anyone convince you of anything other than that.

 

I've tried it but with a few inches of shredded leaves, and a small vent under the top cover. I vented by pitting a 1/16" shim at the corners.

The top 1/8" or so leaves was damp, but that was all. Moisture evaporated and vented out as fast as it accumulated.
The leaves were effective enough as insulation to keep it very warm at the screen board.

 

Would this 'saw shavings' or whatever harbor insects? If so the optimum material would be cellulose insulation, which contains boric acid which would inhibit mold and insects. Coupled with a vent above it should work.

Ok , let me have it. Just no 'bird comments.

 

Like some have pointed out, let the moisture out.

Wait until the propolis is hard and pry the inner cover. A gap will be created by the stiff propolis not wanting to fit together.

Angle the outer cover back so the front edge sits on the inner cover. This is what I do with no moisture issues.

 

I wish there was a picture to show how to do this. I learn so much better that way

 

"...an inclination to solve problems...."
Problem solving skills usually don't translate well when applied to living creatures and complicated by constantly changing genetics and the vagrancies of local weather and fauna.
That's why beekeeping is more ART than SCIENCE

 

"...There's nothing wrong with experimenting and trying new things for yourself..."
As long as one is aware that failed "experiment " will possibly result in a failed hive.
Many ideas are promoted by starting out saying "I read somewhere..." and the lack of context is misleading. Was this a plan that succeeded? Does this scheme translate well to different weather patterns? Was it a plan at all or just speculation by someone who lacked a grasp of the physiology of bees?

 

I tend to think of my hives as houses. The attic of my house is insulated and vented year-round and there is no material designed to capture moisture. Would the same principles apply to the hive?

 

Kinda, the "ceiling" of the hive (inner cover), if insulated, is less likely to have condensation dripping from it. The cold walls of the hive will have moisture condensing on them which is a good thing.

Upper entrances will allow some air flow which will carry some moisture with it. I saw some pictures somewhere that showed frost around an upper entrance.

 

Actually James Watt was neither a sailor nor an Equestrian. He Re Invented the steam engine. He was a mechanical Engineer and most likely had little knowledge of any particular end use of the engine.

 

I believe you to be in error concerning the knowledge of Mr Watt, and to be "splitting hairs" rather than addressing the points I was attempting to make:
1)one must learn to walk before one attempts to run
2)not everything one reads on the Internet is practical outside of narrow parameters

 

Splatt,

I used boxes a pine shavings similar to the Warre Quilt Box last winter on all my Langstroth hives. Compared to the 27 out of 30 I lost the previous winter, I didn't lose any colonies last year. Granted, it wasn't much a winter last year, but they likely contributed to my 0% losses last winter and my increase to 150 colonies this year. The one point I would make is the shaving don't absorb moisture from the ambient air, as most folks think. Instead, they appear to catch the condensation from the inner cover before it rains on your cluster. When checked through the winter, only the upper inch of shaving ever felt damp, but even that was rare.

I put the quilt box (a medium with window screening stapled to the bottom about 2/3 full of shavings) on top of upper-most box, then the standard inner cover is placed on top of the quilt box, topped off by a telescoping slid forward to expose the ventilation notch. I placed remote thermometer/hygrometers (Meade TM005-X) in two hives and recorded less than 80% relative humidity the entire season until removal at spring inspections. (Note: Relative humidity did mirror changes in outside relative humidity.) I did not experience any mold growth or vermin infestation in the colonies or shavings, unlike the previous years. I did have minor mold growth on the tops of some of the inner covers. Although these quilt boxes appeared to help in colony survival and help eliminate previous moisture problems, the mild winter and my other management may have contributed to the lack of losses. I also cut off the landing boards on all the bottom boards (to prevent the accumulation of snow and ice at the entrance), left all the screened bottom boards open, used entrance reducers to help against robbing, used 1/4" hardware cloth as a mouse preventative, raised all hives onto a pair of chimney blocks to prevent skunk problems, and wrapped each hive with black felt paper for solar gain so the bees could break cluster to access food better and an unanticipated benefit of snow melt around the hives eliminating shoveling snow away from the entrances. Also note, I don't use top entrances. I was trying to achieve a stratification of heat in the hive. I was trying to test the hypothesis that bees only warm the cluster, not the box. Since hive temperature recordings never dipped below 75F, it appears the cluster will heat the hive to some degree, and is retained if not allowed to vent though upper entrances.

Being a skeptic, I don't want to imply these quilt boxes are a silver bullet to colony survival. They might be another tool for us to consider if your local overwintering environment would benefit from the insulating and moisture control this device aids.

Hope this helps,
Steve

 

I used boxes a pine shavings similar to the Warre Quilt Box last winter on all my Langstroth hives.

Thanks. What you describe is pretty much what I had in mind, and I'm glad to hear that it helped. I'm almost inclined to go ahead and give it a try.

 

Splatt,

The naysayers will indeed nay-say.

Try it, and see if it works for your bees. As I and some others suggested already, just make sure you vent above the saw dust or which ever material you chose to go with.

 

Attic is getting close but think adding moisture. This is really about dew point and relative humidity (or as my wife would say, physics blab la). Warm air holds more moisture than cold air, heat moves from hot to cold, air cannot hold more moisture than dew point (100% relative humidity). Bees are warm and moist, this air moves up the hive where it contacts cooler surfaces. If it is below the dew point of the existing air mix the moisture condenses. Correct me if I am wrong but MB lets it out before it condenses and the others are attempting to keep it from dripping. See Psychrometrics
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychrometrics
Does anybody try to slope a top cover to direct the moisture where it will do no harm?

 

Does anybody try to slope a top cover to direct the moisture where it will do no harm?

I've got my whole hive angled slightly forward. The hope for me is that any moisture will run along the IC and down the inner hive wall.

 

"Does anybody try to slope a top cover to direct the moisture where it will do no harm?"
I don't slope the cover,I slope the entire hive to be lower in the back on my top entrance hives- this lets moisture laiden air out the front entrance and incidental wind driven rain run down the back wall away from the bees.
On my bottom entrance hives I do the opposite- the hive is tilted UP in the back to let wind driven rain run out the front/bottom entrance.
Some of my bottom entrance hives have inner covers with slotted edges turned to the back,some have no inner cover and use shims in the rear of the telescoping cover.
The unmentioned downside to upper ventilation (and there is ALWAYS a downside to every management maneuver) is its often an unguarded entrance for hive beetles.

 

Mike, I have been milling such a thing as a sloped ceiling around in my mind. at best it would be only marginally reliable. If the bees at any time started building burr comb on such a ceiling it would be useless. The material would have to be nearly flawless as to irregularities because any bump or rough spot woudl serve as a point for moisture to drip from. I am thinking of a material smooth like glass. and even if that started to get dirty it would become less effective. Or the slope woudl have to be fairly steep. For minimum water drainage a slop of 1/4 inch per foot is required. that is what is code for sewer lines. a roof can be anywhere from that to as much as 12 in 12 or a 45% slope to the roof. That is for run off from the top surface but has to take into consideration things like wind driven water that can be pushed back up the roof. Who knows what an effective slope for the underside of a surface would be. I guess it would be fairly steep though. Even at that as a drop of water begins to run from the highest side to the lowest. it will come into contact with additional moisture. If that drop becomes heavy enough at any time it will drop no matter what. Again unreliable. Sounds good at first but I predict such a design to not function very well.

 

Absolutely correct on every point,Daniel.
Every little bit helps,if only to help ME feel better so not working very well would appear to be better then doing nothing,and putting a rock under the back of a hive or a twig under a cover fits my budget well.