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Question on battling City Hall

7.7K views 32 replies 18 participants last post by  devdog108  
#1 ·
Hi -

I am in Las Vegas NV where I kept bees for many years. I was the one the city would call to get swarms, free for all. Due to movin from a house to an apartment and loosing access to an alfalfa farm in UT, I stopped beekeeping for years, but decided to get back into last year.

Our 2 hives are doing GREAT this year but today we had a visit from the city. We were written up for a 'general nuisance' and ordered to remove our bees from our home. They are in our backyard, away from everything, tucked in under our fruit trees. They told us 'someone' filed a complaint about our bees, which I find hard to believe as no one can see the hives. I have spent some time in going over all of the city codes, state laws etc etc etc, and find NOTHING in any of them to ban or restrict our hives. The bureaucrat that came by suggested we put them in a greenhouse so they wouldn't get out!

I am going to file an appeal with the city of course, but I was wondering if anyone had any suggestions to help me. I am familiar with legal systems and legislatures, having spent years doing paralegal work and lobbying for a family group I was involved with, and can make a good verbal presentation. So far I am armed with the city codes and a city newsletter sent out this year urging everyone to be 'bee friendly' to help bees, as they 'perform a necessary service'. It urges you to plant bee friendly plants, not to use pesticides etc.

I may have to move my bees for a time to a friends house, also in the city, who also keeps bees, but I REFUSE to stop my hobby for more than a short time. This in as OUTRAGE! Sorry, still boiling over this whole thing. Good thing they dealt with my wife instead of me.

Any ammo for me? Any suggestions? All help welcome!

TIA

Glen
 
#4 ·
i like the idea of the empty hive thing. moove your hives but put to empty ones in the same spot. and when thay get a suposed complaint take them to the hives and show them thay are empty. also i would rember that thay have to prove it was one of your bees that got the complaint. you also have to rember thay bees are a wild creature you dont own them just the wooden boxes that the bees have chosen to live in. after all why just stop at planting bee friendly flowers you build bee friendly wooden boxes.:D
 
#5 ·
Why not enlist the support of your community. Write Letters & Op Ed pieces to the Newspapers

Get yourself down to City Council and talk about the value of pollination and how green the carbon footprints are. Community Gardens benefit -- Do you have any in the area -- Enlist their support

Having Bees mean having Local Food, which means Fresh Food, which is tastier than trucked in foods.

City Councils usually have their meetings filmed -- In the court of public opinion, you are likely to be listed as a Good Guy and the city is likely to be listed as a bad guy. You will be fighting city hall and everyone roots for the underdog.

Put up signs in front of your property enlisting support -- Use some catchy slogans and artwork. Maybe you can enlist the support of boy/girl scout troops, who can create a project for earning Merit badges

Do you have "green type" groups in your area -- join them.

Do you go to church in the town -- If so, ask to speak to them about your plight.

With the collapse of the honeybees, people are very aware of their food connection to it, create an interesting presentation and speak to Lions Clubs, Kiwanni's clubs, Elk Clubs, Churches, Boy Scout/Girl Scout Troops/Youth Clubs.

Go around in your neighborhood with a petition drive and see who signs up and who refuses. At least you will know who you need to give honey to.

I am thinking that local television cameras and newspapers love controversy.
Make sure that they come to your house and that they see your posters. Create a web site (blog) if you can, enlisting individuals for their support. Collect their email addresses and send them an electronic newsletter.

If you go in fighting on your own, then you are not likely to make a dent against the bureacracy.

But if you go in that you are fighting for the people, then you are likely to win. I wish you Good Luck as I also have my bees in town as well and someday could face the same music that you are going thru.
 
#6 ·
Try to get the help of your county cooperative extension.

Try to get your city government to help you. Meet in person with your zoning officials, city clerk, etc. Try not to get frustrated, and be friendly. You can sell your side of the story in person much easier.

Check to see if you can enlist the help of local bee clubs.

If you have an idea who the complainant is, maybe you can resolve some of their concerns

Unfortunately, law enforcement and rulings are not always fair. It is often the case of "the squeaky wheel gets the grease".
 
#7 ·
I would call these guys and talk with them....They can head you in the right direction.

NEVADA
Apiary Inspection
Agricultural Programs Coordinator
Nevada Division of Agriculture
350 Capitol Hill Ave
Reno, NV 89502
Phone (702) 688-1180
Fax (702) 688-1178
 
#8 ·
The "privacy act" they referred to is questionable. A quick look at NV's Freedom of Information act: http://www.leg.state.nv.us/NRS/NRS-239.html#NRS239Sec010 leads me to believe that the "complaint" is probably public information.

Did they write you under the zoning ordinance, property maintenance code, or some other local ordinance? Did they cite a code section? More often than not, they baffle people with b.s. and when called on it, they back off.
 
#9 ·
Keep it simple!!!!!
Does Vegas have a law that forbids bees inside the city limits?
If so don't waste your time on a fight.
If they don't have said law go to court with this deal.
I do believe with this the city or court may be required to release the name of the persons who orginated the complaint.
Besides how is the city attorney going to represent this complaint with out the orginator of said complaint.
Remember the key to this entire deal is if there a law in place that forbids bees inside the city limits.
Don't forget there are still some honest judges left on the bench that will help the little guy.
Don't give up & go for it, what have you got to loose????
 
#12 ·
Keep it simple!!!!!
Does Vegas have a law that forbids bees inside the city limits?
If so don't waste your time on a fight.
If they don't have said law go to court with this deal.
We were written up for a 'general nuisance'
The "general nuisance" will cause more trouble for you than "a law" because it is so wide a term :(
 
#10 ·
Prior to even thinking about court, contact your representative on the City Council. Tell them you want to obey the law, but that the city hasn't shown you the law. I've been involved in municipal code enforcement (all types) for thirty years. Whatever code they wrote you under has a definition of "general nuisance." I doubt that keeping bees meets that definition.
 
#11 · (Edited)
It seems to me that the fact that you can't ask who filed the complaint is a violation of one of your unalienable rights. Anyone accused has the right to know the identity of the accuser. Many people assume that we have just a few unalienable rights mentioned in the Declaration of Independence- but remember that the text says "...AMONG WHICH are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." If you read the writings of the founding fathers they mention many unalienable rights.

As Thomas Jefferson said "...as government grows, liberty yields."

Ok- I'll get off my soapbox- probably a discussion for another location.
 
#13 ·
Our 2 hives are doing GREAT this year but today we had a visit from the city. We were written up for a 'general nuisance' and ordered to remove our bees from our home. They are in our backyard, away from everything, tucked in under our fruit trees.
You should have a No Trespassing sign up. How did they get in if they were 'tucked' in under fruit trees. When they knocked on the door, I would have asked what they wanted, then I would have asked to see the 'warrant'. And without a warrant they would have been told to leave the premises immediately. Never answer there questions, it is NONE of their business with or without a warrant. If there is a warrant there must be a sworn complaint. With a sworn complaint your adversary is the complaintant, not the law/code enforcement people. We have a responsibility to our founding fathers to preserve the freedoms they won for us with their lives.

We were written up for a 'general nuisance' and ordered to remove our bees from our home.

I am going to file an appeal with the city of course, but I was wondering if anyone had any suggestions to help me.
Yes and you were probably written up from the information which you 'voluntarily' provided to them. Demand a trial by jury, make them prove up that it is a 'general nuisance'. If it not defined by their codes then the law is unconstitutionally, vague, arbitrary and capricious. File lawsuit, against the city and the enforcement officers or violations of your rights.

They told us 'someone' filed a complaint about our bees, which I find hard to believe as no one can see the hives.
A complaint is public information. Find out and sue the complaintant if there is a complaint; otherwise the gestapo entered your property under false pretenses. Don't move your bees without moving yourself. Talk to an attorney and have him sue for all your troubles, then they can also pay your attorney fees. Make their life's more miserable than they have made yours. Stun them wittless with your aggressive response. Now 'they' are your enemy, like a swarm of locust seeking to devour you. Get after them will all you have.
 
#16 ·
What exactly did you get from the City? A ticket, a threatening letter, summons, a court order? Depending on the nature of the notification, maybe you can just ignore it.

I wouldnt do anything unless there were actual legal consequences involved. If you have to go to court, what is the worst case, a lost day of work and $100 fine? Then fight it and see where it goes.
 
#18 ·
I want to thank everyone who has responded to this question. You have offered me some very good ideas and suggestions and I will be making my plans this week.

With more searching, I have found an article dated 2000 about the 'last registered bee keeper' in Las Vegas, and how the city has changed him from beekeeper to bee killer with their new law declaring bees to be a 'nuisance'. I also found a couple of articles dated in 2005 and 2007 about another beekeeper here and his honey that he sells. I have a possible contact for him through a store that, as of 2007, sold his honey and I will call on Monday to see if they can connect us. I will also be calling the city councilman for this area to see if I can get an appointment with his staff. I don't hold out much hope at this point, and cannot afford the $120 a day fine they are threatening me with, so I may have to move my hives to a friends place down the road. Two blocks away is the county line and I have not bee able find anything about any problems there, and I am going over to ask my friend who I set up with his hive if I can move them to his lot as well.

Here is a link to an official Las Vegas newsletter about bees - http://lasvegasnevada.gov/information/18073.htm Seems pretty lame that after putting this out saying we need to take care of our bees and that they are disappearing that they would pull something like they have with me.

I will post again with any updates or info I find. If I end up with nothing good, I have registered a domain name which I will openly and very publicly us to go after them. Not that it will necessarily do me any good, but I've done it before, with picket lines and public protests. I made sure I was on the news at least once a month, and even though some public officials hated me on a personal basis, we did get some laws changed after several years of battling. The only difference is that I had a group behind me then, and I am alone on this one I guess.

Remember when America was a free country? I do, and this sucks.

Thanx again

Glen
 
#25 ·
I want to thank everyone who has responded to this question. You have offered me some very good ideas and suggestions and I will be making my plans this week.
We just spent almost a year in our county (Prince William, VA) and finally changed our beekeeping zoning laws, and many other counties and cites hae done the same. What worked for us was local pressure and some State support. The White House hives being placed one month before our final hearing might have helped as well since we are only a hour away from there. Also our neighboring county had 25 years of bee friendly beekeeping ordinance we were able to cite. We gave each County Supervisor a packet of research, etc. and personally met with each one and gave formal power point presentations as well as informal meetings. We found that our elected folks for the most part do not respond to letters etc. from non local folks.
Feel free to contact me off line for more info.
 
#19 · (Edited)
I want to take a minute to chime in on this topic if I may. I am a new beekeeper but I'm not new to government works. As someone who worked in county government (many of those years in a court room) for almost 20-years, I can give you a little insight as I how see this. While this is a public forum and many people want to try to help, some have given misleading or completely wrong advice. And while I'm not in your state, my information is generic, so it could cross state lines.

When the city says that the information is private, it may be because someone filed an anonymous complaint. It happens. Not everyone wants to get "involved" other than to complain, so some local and county governments use the anonymous complaint option, almost like Crime Stoppers. Mine does. They do it with crime and they do it with zoning issues too. So they truly may not know who filed the complaint. If they do know who filed it, they may, and I said, may, be forced to reveal their source if it goes to court -- depends on the law there. Some courts say that the accused have the right to face their accuser - but if you're dealing with compliance issues and not a criminal or civil charge, that may not be the case of facing your accuser.

Regardless of what some are telling you here, its not so easy to fight city hall. Running down to the court house to fight in a court room is just fine if you have the time and the money. But remember, you're dealing with an entity with lots of money, so they have the upper hand. Believe me, I'm all for fighting for your rights, and if you are passionate enough about your cause, then go for the gusto. But..before you endeavor to fight city hall in a court room, you better do some price comparisons with attorneys who may represent you. They don't come cheap. Then there are the untold days you'll spend going to court, days out of work, untold delays for your side or the city's side -- and it could last months or a year or more. And for each time your lawyer works on your case, it is added to the bill. Example: a friend of mine was taken to civil court by another individual last year. My friend retained a civil attorney, but before the lawyer would take the case, my friend had to plunk down $10,000 cash as a retainer -- and his fee was $200 per hour, not including expenses. In the end, the plaintiff dropped the case against my friend...but his final bill anyway -- and they never stepped in the court house -- was $8,500. Think you could do it yourself? Looks good on television with Judge Judy but its not easy, rarely does the defendant win, and judges have little tolerance for the ignorance of counsel, especially if you act as yor own lawyer. There is a lot of truth to the saying, "a lawyer who represents himself has a fool for a client" -- so don't go into this blind. It ain't cheap.

I think you'll get more passion for your cause if you try to work with the city moreso than raise a stink. For example, call the zoning office and ask them just what ordinance(s) you're breaking and how could you comply. If they don't have ordinances that cover bee hives as a nuisance, then you might be in good shape -- because if the city decides to create one, you might be "grandfathered" as they say, meaning that your present hives could stay, but all future hives would be regulated. If they do have an ordinance, and you failed to abide by it, then you're probably in trouble -- and you'll have to face the music. Ignorance of the law (or an ordinance) is no defense in most courts. They'll just say it was your responsibilty to find out the law before you put them in.

By the way, someone here posted that you could ignore it. Sure you can, but that's really bad, bad advice from someone who chances are has no clue how the system works. Its foolish. Say the city tells you to move them and you don't. You think.."you know, maybe it will all go away..." and you ignore it. Some municipalities levy fines of $25, $50 or as much as $100 a day for violations, and if you say you don't have it to pay, they just put liens against your property so you can't sell it, and if you do, through a judgement they get their money first before you or anyone else. If you own no property but you owe fines, in some jurisdictions, they can ask a judge to issue a judgement that orders your wages to be garnished..including unemployment or government assistance benefits. Its never, ever wise to ignore something like this.

One more thing, many governments that have nuisance ordinances or laws can deal with the problem if you won't. That includes tearing down dangerous houses, mowing or bush-hogging out of control property, picking up problem dogs and cats -- and I suspect dealing with "problem" bees would fall under that umbrella too. Imagine coming home one day and your hives are gone because you failed to act on a nuisance complaint or you just ignored them. Do you want some public works employee showing up and dousing your hives down with insecticide and then carting away what's left? Good luck in getting a judge or jury to feel sorry for you when you ignored the issue. I've worked too hard for what I have and I'm sure you have too. I would never ignore something like this. My advice, whatever you do, do not ignore this!

Try to be friendly. Most city and county employees I know are nice people who just have a job to do. Of course, there are total jerks too, but most just want to do their jobs and go home like the rest of us. Like the old saying, you get more flies with honey than vinegar. Be cooperative. If you're are defensive right off the bat, then you can bet, it will work against you. I'm not saying to bow down and give up, not at all. But if you come across as willing to work WITH them instead of against them, you'll get farther. If they simply refuse, then go to the next level.

If it looks like zoning or compliance officials are unwilling to work with you, then go to the next step of the city manager or the city council. Ask to be put on the council's agenda -- and notify the compliance officer that you're taking it to the appeals process so they can stop possible fines until the city's leaders can hear your case. And remember, when you apear before a city council, the very people in zoning and compliance will be there so they can present their side, and if you've been uncooperative or nasty, they'll use it against you and your cause.

From there, get every possible bit of information on cities that have enacted ordinances involving beekeeping so you can present it. If you Google it, you'll find where quite a few cities that have enacted beekeeping ordinances, and many have actually made their ordinances workable for the beekeeper. Some cities have even relaxed their standards because of plight of the honey bee in recent years. One city to the north even dropped their ban to two hives per acre, and another dropped their ban on rooftop hives. There is a wealth of information out there. Use it.

Get help from beekeeping organizations in your state. I'm sure they can help too if you ask...maybe they've already helped someone in your state. If you have to appear before city council to fight for your cause, then having expert witnesses who know beekeeping inside and out can be a huge plus. Why? Because to the average person, including most elected or government officials, all they know is that bees have stingers and they've heard about "killer bees" and they've mistakenly lumped hornets, yellowjackets and all other stinging insects in with our beloved honey bees. You have to educate them about the honey bee and how they're helpful and rarely sting unless provoked or protecting their nest. Movies and reckless news accounts have done just as much harm to the honey bee as pesticides. So it is your job to help them learn just what we as beekeepers are doing to HELP the honey bee. I guarantee you that most of them have no clue what we do.

If that doesn't work then you can take it to court. But like I said before, you need to be prepared for a time-consuming battle that could cost a lot in so many ways. The little man (or woman) can win against the government but it won't necessarily come without a price tag. Never go into a situation blind.

Tip off the news media because they can be a big help in getting the word out. While they're supposed to be neutral, many television and radio stations and newspapers can bring your cause to the forefront and make people aware of what is happening -- thus helping you win more support. Always be sweet as honey when you present your cause in the media. If you appear radical, it will bite you on the backside.

I've written a novel here, but I hope you find it helpful. I know you're going through a rough time with this, and it is important to you. You have a hill to climb with this cause because many people have made up their minds that all things that fly and have a stinger are bad. You know that's not true and so do I. But are you willing to do what it takes to fight for what's right? Only you can make that decision -- I mean really make that decision -- and not let others who've never even seen a court room, except on television, tell you what to do.

I honestly wish you the best! Good luck on your endeavors! Let us know what you decide to do and how it works out for you.
 
#20 ·
Please let us know how this goes for you. You're not alone, you just need to connect with the other people this matters to. If it comes to that, I would certainly connect with any environmental groups in your area, groups for 'eating locally', etc. And letters to editors, etc. I would try to get on the local news, as well. Shouldn't be hard with the situation, and that might garner you a lot of support. Now is a great time to get some of the laws against honeybees changed, with all the attention they're getting and everyone saying to 'help the bees'. I say put your money where your mouth is. You can't say that and then do everything possible to 'outlaw' them and make it impossible for them to exist. Anyone think it would help for beekeepers to protest this as a group? They may not care if people aren't in the area, but I'm happy to write a protest letter or anything else you think might help. I really think we all need to try to get these kinds of laws changed right now, while bees are in the national spotlight and getting sympathy.

BYW, go DRUR!
 
#21 ·
NC Bee Dude- I guess you were posting at the same time as me...just read your post and it really saddens me. :( Because you're so right. It's so difficult -and expensive - for the 'little guy' (in other words, normal Americans) these days. An individual is at such a disadvantage against any local or larger government or corporations. Good information, though.
 
#22 ·
Thanks, Terri Lynn! It really is sad. I am with you, if Tia decides to fight it, I'll put my fingers to work on a letter too. I believe we have to stand up for what is right, and believe me, I believe all of us beeks have to stand together. Ordinary citizens can win though, ordinances are changing all over the country about beekeeping in cities and counties, so it can be done. But the sad fact is, if it goes to a court room, the costs can be outrageous in lawyer fees, fine, court fees -- its crazy! I really wish Tia the best! And thanks again!
 
#23 ·
I think a few people may have misinterpreted my post. The OP said that the they were written up for a 'general nuisance' and ordered to remove our bees from their home. My question is, was it an actual court order, or just a threatening letter? I am not advocating that anyone ignore a court order. Just make sure you know exactly what you are dealing with.

Case in point – In my area there is a county code stipulating that you can have no more than 4 dogs and 4 cats. The lady next door had a bazillion cats breeding uncontrolled in her garage. The garage door was broken and she would just leave an open bag of cat food on the floor. The cats could come and go as they pleased. There were times when I counted 16 to 20 cats in her front yard. I complained. The neighbors complained. Everybody was complaining. The county in their wonderful enforcement effort, sent her a letter that simply quoted the county code (…Thou shall not keep more than 4 dogs and 4 cats in your domicile…). That was it. No fine, no citation, no order, no nothing. This went on for years (several letters from the county) but nothing ever happened in the way of enforcement. Thus my comment that ignoring may be an option.

It’s true that you cant fight City Hall, but you can always drag your feet and some cities aren’t always that quick to move. Just remember that you read this on the internet and as always, YMMV.
 
#28 ·
I think a few people may have misinterpreted my post. The OP said that the they were written up for a 'general nuisance' and ordered to remove our bees from their home. My question is, was it an actual court order, or just a threatening letter? I am not advocating that anyone ignore a court order. Just make sure you know exactly what you are dealing with. It’s true that you cant fight City Hall, but you can always drag your feet and some cities aren’t always that quick to move. Just remember that you read this on the internet and as always, YMMV.
Nabber: I see what you're saying about some cities, but a lot of cities have code enforcement divisions that are "to the letter" about complaints and issues, and as soon as the "violator" receives a notice, the clock starts ticking. The original poster lives in Las Vegas, so I would think they stay on top of enforcement complaints and timelines for acting on those complaints. If a letter or citation says "you have until 5:00pm on so-and-so date to reply to this complaint" -- all I'm saying is, respond to it. While a one-horse town may have a single code enforcement officer who isn't as timely with acting on violations, larger cities with multiple enforcement officers can stay on top of the issues and act on those issues.

The courts have granted that city, county and state government have regulatory control of ordinances for the safety and welfare of citizens. While you are right, you should not ignore an order from a court -- but ignoring a citation or complaint from city or county government can have dire consequences as well. Sure, you can fight the city or county in a court room if you're charged with violating a local ordinance -- but it won't be easy nor is it cheap. I applaude anyone who has the time and resources to fight for the right thing. But maybe it can be settled before it goes that far.

Another thing I thought about last night is that some cities and counties have ordinances that lump honey bees into the "wild animal" category. It is truly silly, I know. I researched it a lot before I put my hive behind my house and discovered that some cities and counties lump bees in with skunks, racoons, deer and bears -- calling them wild. Lumping them in with wild animals allows them to deal with the situation if they become a nuisance -- if the problem is bad enough, killing them. For example, if a skunk or dear causes problems for animal control or landowner, provisions allow for it to be killed because it is wild and causing harm. The same thing goes with bees. It is the silliest thing that people lump bees into the category or a bear, but I think ignorance plays a big part in it.
 
#29 ·
For what it's worth my 2 residential hives (located in my back yard) were discovered by the Electric meter-reader as he/she was doing a routine monthly read and even though they had overlooked them for months, one particular day they must have noticed some activity. Maybe your annonymous informant was a public utililty employee who might coincidentally work near the city hall ~~ ? We're routing for you !
 
#32 ·
Does Nevada have a "Right to Farm Act"? Most states do, and the state law supersedes the local ordinance. I was lucky, the State of Michigan modified the Act a few years earlier to include beekeeping on small lots. The way the law reads here, as long as you do not exceed 4 hives on a lot less then 1/4 acre, local government can not make a law against it. Now, a bee yard with 30 hives in town is a different thing.
 
#33 ·
Most states do, and the state law supersedes the local ordinance. .
Actually, No it doesn't necessarily pertain to all states..... Had a business license for Alabama, but not one for the county i was working in and got fined. Same thing in SC, and Tn.........3w fines 5 weeks time.....