The traditional became the tradition because it works. The long favors the keeper, not the bee.

 

The traditional became the tradition because it works.

Contentious ? I'd say what became the 'tradition' did so due to aggressive marketing, and once that market became established, it has remained so ... because indeed, it does work. But then, so do other designs of hive.

For example - take a look at a country where the Langstroth design (or a derivative of it) has never been accepted - Spain - where the Layens Hive (a Deep Long Hive) still to this day remains the hive of choice, and where honey yield remains impressive, and an important consideration. I have read articles (but cannot verify their veracity) that the Spanish 'authorities' have been trying to persuade it's beekeepers to change over to Langs for some time now, but thus far without success.
LJ

 

I keep both traditional Langstroth hives and top bar hives. From what I have seen at my house, top bar hives usually have much smaller populations and produce less honey. I am not sure if the reason has to do with the size of the combs or the layout of the hive. In my case, it does not matter. I don't keep hives for honey sales. I absolutely love the top bar hives and keep them for pure enjoyment. Overwintering survival is similar if you can keep the mites in check.

 

Do they produce less honey because they are constantly replacing the comb?

 

When you look at a free hanging hive, such as under an eve or a swarm that stayed on a branch, long seems to be favored over wide. I have relatively cold temps, I suspect a hot climate would be a little different. A long split into two queens probably would work better, but I've never tried that.

You have to push the worked combs out from the center and then get them to use the outer comb. Great on your back though.

 

The one hive that really favors the bees for more honey production, high bee populations, and overwintering is the Modified Square Jumbo Dadant ("MSJD") beehive. If using 3/4" lumber (usually called 1 inch), the outside dimensions are 19-7/8" x 19-7/8" x 11-5/8" deep, the inside dimensions are 18-3/8" x 18-3/8" x 11-5/8". There is a partition in the center. This is because it starts out in Spring as a 2-queen system. The honey boxes are usually the 5-11/16" "shallow" type because they are heavy - they hold 12 combs.

I'm using 1.240 inch wide brood frames (11-1/4" deep). 14 of these "deep and narrow" frames fit inside an MSJD brood box. I'm ordering 5.1 mm cell size wax foundation for the brood boxes. The advantage is that with narrower frames and smaller cell size, the bees population comes up a few weeks earlier in the Spring, taking more full advantage of the main Spring nectar flow. On top of that, a 2-queen system has bees competing to fill up the honey boxes at a faster rate than if they were separate colonies. The additional depth of the frames allows the queens to lay a full brood pattern earlier in the season and for longer in the season.

We separate the 2-queen system back into individual 1-queen colonies when they reach 4 to 4-1/2 frames of brood (whichever colony gets there first). We also place the honey frames at 90 degrees to the brood frames so that the bees have full access to any honey frame they wish. We flip the honey boxes ("endo", not vertically) 180 degrees so that the 2 colonies fill them up evenly. I usually build 3 or 4 honey boxes per brood box.

The advantages of these are many more than I have enumerated here. Search old threads by Fusion_power, where he discusses various hive designs, their plusses and minuses. I am completely sold on the advantages of this hive design and management system, so much that I am rebuilding my apiary with this design - not exclusively - I do have to sell bees to others with the "standard" equipment. It's just that this is an inconvenience to my bees and I. Standard equipment does work, just nowhere near as well as these larger hives.

Long hives are at a distinct disadvantage for overwintering temperate zone bees in colder climates. Vertical stacking hives work much better, especially with a fondant board, a quilt box, and foam insulation around them. Long hives would require very tough bees, and would never populate up at the same rates come Spring time.

 

....Long hives are at a distinct disadvantage for overwintering temperate zone bees in colder climates..

As it has been pointed out many time over - long hive does not assume a shallow hive (a typical long Lang or a typical TB is a shallow hive).

In fact, a true traditional long hive (deep, trough-style hives favored by late 19th/early 20th century European homesteaders) provides superior wintering accommodations to even a deep, square Dadant.
Technically a deep Dadant is not even a true deep hive (just one of deeper hives and still suited for large-scale, standardized operators).
True deep hives are those starting with Layens and deeper.
Attached few pics:

Another fact is that large scale operators even dislike the traditional, deep long hives in Eastern Europe exactly because they develop TOO fast and start producing swarms too early (a big hassle when you are a commercial keeper specializing in honey). From what I observe, however, those in business of selling nucs/queens do like the deep long hives exactly for the same reasons - good wintering of small units/wintering of small units in a single hive, and strong early development.

LJ and myself provided lots of examples and references in this regard by now on this forum.
Those interested can easily find relevant postings.

 

OK, here is a quick link for you :
https://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?342436-Ukraine-crossed-frames&p=1669793#post1669793

 

I just wonder if I put that deep lang vertically (only one of them) so later for ease of honey extraction, will the bee like it? ( meaning will there be enough distance side to side)

 

Greg - do you use a 2-queen system in the Layens hive?

Also, could you post plans (or a link to them) for the Layens hive, perhaps any of the mods to it you find highly advantageous?

 

No, I have not use 2-queen system.
So far a double-queen system set for wintering did not succeed for me yet (I am a hard-bond type keeper - but that is off-topic).
This year, I will set the 20-frame rig for double-colony wintering again and will see what happens in spring.
Technically, my 20-frame rig is ideally suited for a double-colony (double-queen) system and keepers in East Eu. do this routinely (they run 25-30 frame Dadant horizontal rigs as a norm).

Please follow the "quick link" few posts above where I rant a little about the latest mods that I did (Layens/Lang combo hive).
There are few photos to look at (I can post more) and a nice schematic drawing of an Ukrainian combo is hanging there as well.
I am not going to bother with dimensions as anyone can just figure those out for themselves.
For my combos, I repurposed standard Lang 10-frame boxes; so that's the dimension.

In that same link thread I dropped in a video ref to show the deep brood nest/standard honey supers in action.
Look at that. Many keepers in East Eu. are trying that setup out as we speak and the feedback has only been positive so far.

Since you are in Cali, your existing Dadant setup maybe just what you want as your conditions are really mild.
But if you were in the upper Midwest, the proposed Layens/Lang combo is a thing to consider.
Maybe still to consider even in your locale; what is there to loose?

As for me, I have three of such units in live testing as we speak.
The main reason I am testing these out - mobility.
While I do love my large horizontal rigs (16 frames and larger), they are just darn heavy for a single person, if to be moved, and best be used in static setting.

So, I decided to reduce the brood nest down to 12-14 frames because this sizing fits exactly into a typical Lang 10 frame box sizing.
Fuse together 3 medium Lang boxes with very minimal mods - done - you got your vertical frame brood nest.

Clearly, three Lang medium boxes in volume are too small for a normal summer development - that is easily solved by adding as many typical Lang supers as needed vertically.
However, the three Lang medium boxes make for a perfect off-season/early spring volume setup in deep Layens configuration (with vertically oriented frames in them; using follower boards to compress the bees as needed).
This setup takes 14 large frames (if 1.25 inch wide) or 12 frames (if 1.5 inch wide) - hence I call it 12-14 frame setup.

The only significant mod to me is switching to pass-through top bars and have consistent dimensions.
I got locking top bars now all over my equipment and did not follow the consistent dimensions much as not needed in classic horizontal configurations (a great advantage if only staying horizontal).
Well, that ad-hoc TB approach needs a change IF I am to be using Lang supers vertically.

 

The main or only way to get surplus honey is if there are enough plants spitting nectar, when you have ample bees to gather it, they have ample room to store it, and weather permitting. Often times, a new hive is not built up enough during the flow to provide the beek with a surplus super(s). But an early season caught large swarm can/does/will at times gather that surplus, especially if the bees are placed on ready built frames, including the supers.

Perfect example: Here, SW WA, this spring. Maple bloom weather was near perfect. I did get ultimately 11 gallons of honey this year (+-10 hives), and mostly due to that maple flow, but hives were essentially shut down by the 1st of June due to the dearth having started, and the normal generally at least half way decent black berry nectar flow did not materialize. Sorry, in this case, size does not really matter.

Beeks that started hives just prior to June 1st had a feeding time on their hands, with a great deal of difficulty getting built up.

As for configuration, bees generally put a large honey crown above their brood. Especially necessary in colder climate winters. "If" they feed up through what is above them and reach the top of frames with nothing above, they will die, freeze/starve, unless there is solar heat, or warmer temps that allow them to reach any stores beside them. Studying frozen in place clusters, it is very obvious they do not go more than about 1/2 inch to the side, when they are in their cluster, regardless the massive volume of honey that can be available there..

So, the same specs required for topbar hives, ie. warmer climate, hold fairly true for single level long Langs. Very important in cold climates to have ample crown above the bee's cluster.

 

.....So, the same specs required for topbar hives, ie. warmer climate, hold fairly true for single level long Langs. Very important in cold climates to have ample crown above the bee's cluster.

Hence the talk of deep frames which have space for that "crown" built-in by design.

With shallow horizontals bees are forced to move laterally - this makes them vulnerable to long runs of freezing weather when they just can not move one frame over.
If lucky, there will be periodic thaws and they will move over.
If not so lucky, they will run out of food in a hive full of honey.