Just posting to keep this up, hope we get follow up info on results of testing

 

That is just sad. Hopefully your work along with others will finally help resolve this neonics issue.

 

Even if test results aren't "conclusive," I would really hope that the US will follow the EU and place a temporary ban on these substances until more research can be done. Given Steve's credentials and the video documentation of the incident, this is a game-changer IMHO......

 

Given Steve's credentials and the video documentation of the incident, this is a game-changer IMHO......

Steve made a big deal about an alledged planter dust kill 12 months ago: http://www.nbcnews.com/video/nightly-news/47379683#47379683 There was a follow up investigation back then, so why havn't we been told about the results? Is it because neonics were not detected in the dying bees?

And if Steve sincerely believes planter dust killed his bees last year, why did he put them in harms way again this year? Why didn't he talk to his corn farmer neighbors to find out when they would be planting this year so he could move his bees away from the fields? Why didn't Steve shoot video and even a photo of his neighbors planting this past season to document alot of dust was being kicked up? Normally there is not much dust kicked up unless the soil is dry and the wind is blowing rather strongly. Why is Steve the only beekeeper in that region of Minnesota alledging planter dust kills?

 

http://www.purdue.edu/newsroom/research/2012/120111KrupkeBees.html

"Analyses of bees found dead in and around hives from several apiaries over two years in Indiana showed the presence of neonicotinoid insecticides, which are commonly used to coat corn and soybean seeds before planting. The research showed that those insecticides were present at high concentrations in waste talc that is exhausted from farm machinery during planting.

The insecticides clothianidin and thiamethoxam were also consistently found at low levels in soil - up to two years after treated seed was planted - on nearby dandelion flowers and in corn pollen gathered by the bees, according to the findings released in the journal PLoS One this month.

"We know that these insecticides are highly toxic to bees; we found them in each sample of dead and dying bees," said Christian Krupke, associate professor of entomology and a co-author of the findings."

 

http://www.purdue.edu/newsroom/research/2012/120111KrupkeBees.html

Purdue did not test Steve Ellis's bees. But someone did and so Steve already knows the results. Why is Steve not openly and eagerly sharing those results?

 

http://www.extension.org/pages/65034/neonicotinoid-seed-treatments-and-honey-bee-health

"In the spring of 2010 we became aware of it when we saw dead bees in front of most of the Purdue bee hives during the week that corn was being planted nearby. Conditions were hot (85°F), dry and windy and clouds of dust were kicked up by the planters – a common sight throughout the Midwest in early spring. We tested bees that were dying in front of hives near agricultural fields and also healthy hives. The dead bees had clothianidin and several other seed treatment chemicals in or on their bodies. Most of the bees that were dying were actually the nurse bees that may have consumed pollen that was being collected from dandelions and other flowering plants in the area. We saw the characteristic color of dandelion pollen on most of the foragers. Pollen collected by returning foragers and pollen sampled from the cells of those hives had about 10 times the level of clothianidin and thiamethoxam as compared to that detected in the dead bees."

 

You've stated in several threads now that neonicotinoids applied to seed can't be killing bees because the concentration isn't high enough. Above are two studies that clearly demonstrate your assertion is wrong.

 

Such pictures make me real sick, because it is so unnecessary. It has been long known but still pictures like these coming in from all over the World.

It has been known since 1999, so for 14 years now, that the dust of neonic seed treated corn contaminates the nearby environment. In 1999 first poisonings were observed nearby corn fields in Italy.

The university of Udine, Italy, published their first study in 2003, studying the topic from year 2000 on. Manufacturer involved. Title: Risk of environmental contamination by the active ingredient imidacloprid used for corn seed dressing.

I cite:
“corn sowing must be considered a potentially dangerous operation in terms of general environmental pollution. It is possible that the spread of the active ingredient in the environment during sowing operations could cause serious damage in bee colonies”

Next publication in 2006: Presence of imidacloprid on vegetation near corn fields sown with Gaucho® dressed seeds
Citation: “The investigation showed that Gaucho dressed corn seeds during sowing operations can release imidacloprid into the environment, and therefore bees and wild pollinator insects could be exposed to the insecticide molecule. Plants could accumulate the active ingredient released during different sowing operations in the same area and become polluted for a time depending on the length of the sowing period. The same problem could be extended to other pesticides, at present or in the future, used in seed dressing”.

We all know the symptoms very well.

All the combs are toxic waste. You need to throw away all the pollen/bee bread combs or the colonies will continue to shrink. Feed clean pollen patties. At a certain stage of poisoning you need to throw away all the combs and do shake downs.

Especially watch the corn flowering. Bees collect the pollen and you get a second hit. Bees don't recover well from this and die until or during winter in great numbers.

Guttation water is a problem, too. Bees go for the dew drops in the morning and get poisoned. See: http://www.mieliditalia.it/download/moriaapi.wmv
Try to provide a fresh and attractive water source.

Best is to move the bees off this site and generally avoid any corn or other neonic treated farmland if possible.

 

There is abundant evidence that planter dust during seed drilling can be a problem for bees.
The issue here is control and following best practice as it is only a problem under certain conditions with certain types of planter.

There is little or no evidence that guttation droplets are a problem.
Girolami fed guttation droplets with high levels of neonicotinoid to bees in the lab and not surprisingly they died - but it is not even certain that guttation water is used by bees in the field other than on rare occasions.

 

Planter dust is a once a year potential bee exposure problem during dry and windy conditions
and is largely mitigable: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4VKaaq70Yc Smart beekeepers will follow that mitigation advice. Of course, if one is a lawsuit settlement money seeking beekeeper then they won't follow that planter dust avoidance advice.

Bees do not normally collect pollen from field corn so there is no significant neonic exposure there. And bees do not normally drink guttation water droplets so there is no significant exposure there either. Therefore banning neonic seed treatments will not help the health of midwestern bees in any significant way. Banning could potentially have a net detrimental effect if farmers are forced to clear more land where wildflowers currently grow in order to expand crop acreages to make up for the yield loss caused by the banning of neonics.

 

Glad to see someone point out the obvious also.....

No one in the world says neonic are not pesticides, Don't make things up. And yes planter dust can be a issue.. but any RESPOSIBLE bee owner knows this. Looking at steves video, I was alarmed that ANYONE let alone a "professional" would put a full yard like that next to unplanted ground without knowing what is going on.
This looked to me to be another example on a large scale of Piss poor beekeeping.

If I dump sevin dust in my hives bees will die...
Any pollinator here spends their lives looking out for the spraying of pesticides.... in apples. melons. nuts and obviously corn planting also.
WE as beekeepers can not REASONABLY expect the world to stop everything that harms our bees. what we need to do is be judicious. I would no more put my bees in unplanted corn, than let my dog drink antifreeze, or my kids into the poisens under the sink.....

Neonic seed coatings eliminate the need for at least 2 chemical sprayings for insects... I will take that trade EVERY day of the year.

 

Neonic seed coatings eliminate the need for at least 2 chemical sprayings for insects... I will take that trade EVERY day of the year.

:thumbsup:

 

It's not only Steve with problems.
http://minnesota.cbslocal.com/2013/05/16/minn-farmer-blames-pesticides-for-big-bee-die-off/


Randy

 

It's not only Steve with problems.
http://minnesota.cbslocal.com/2013/05/16/minn-farmer-blames-pesticides-for-big-bee-die-off/

Steve Ellis and Rand Honl - out of hundreds of beekeepers in southern Minnesota. Testing of sick and dying bees in Minnesota was conducted last Spring. Why no follow up reports about the test results? Why aren't the beekeepers who think neonics are to blame for last years kills eager and willing to tell us about the results of last year's testing? Could it be because the testing detected beekeeper applied chemicals?

 

When I re-start next year, I wouldn't dream of placing any colonies adjacent to corn field - or any single-crop field, let alone completely surrounded by them on all sides; I just really don't understand why a beekeeper would purposefully do that. Even if the specific pesticides a farmer uses on Crop X aren't a problem for whatever reason, surely nothing but corn (or whichever) pollen has still gotta be a pretty lousy diet for a bee; and what are they supposed to eat when the crop is done?

The news article says this place was the guy's "normal bee yard territory". That's a little vague really, but if it's meant that it's his normal bee yard period, did he have a significant kill last year at this time? If he did, why on Earth is he still keeping bees there? If not, has he tried to find out whether the corn farmers are using something new this year that killed his bees where last year's chemicals did not? Does he have any kind of rapport with them?

 

...The news article says this place was the guy's "normal bee yard territory". That's a little vague really, but if it's meant that it's his normal bee yard period, did he have a significant kill last year at this time? If he did, why on Earth is he still keeping bees there? ...

Your logic is corrupted! If I have land and I devote this land to keep bees - this is my rights! If somebody grow corn next to my property - it is fine as long as dust or other elements from THAT territory pollute MY territory. Do you understand? You suggest nonsense - if I have bees in Santa Monica, you suggest that if somebody emits pollution which landed on my property, than - I have to move away from my property? This is crazy! Bees as well as birds and aircraft have right to fly anywhere as long as they do not create a nuisance. At the same time, it is not OK to purposely emit pollution, which contaminates my property. One business should not affect another.

 

While you can't prove cause and effect in Honeybee field trials, you can most certainly prove translocation. Steve and Randi need to look to some of the Italian dust trap experimental designs.

They may not be able to prove that the dust killed their bees. However, they can prove that the pesticide went off target.

That's a BIG no-no.

 

While you can't prove cause and effect in Honeybee field trials, you can most certainly prove translocation. Steve and Randi need to look to some of the Italian dust trap experimental designsThey may not be able to prove that the dust killed their bees. However, they can prove that the pesticide went off target. That's a BIG no-no.

None of that is relevant to my question about why the results of last year's pesticide residue testing of Steve Ellis's and others dying bees in Minnesota has not made public? Makes one wonder if the results proved embarrassing in some ways?

 

Coumaphos and fluvalinate? The entire US beeswax supply is contaminated with it.
We both know that there haven't been any successful Honeybee pesticide poisoning suits here because you can't control for environmental factors (cause and effect) in Honeybee field trials.

They bring back anything and everything into the hive from anywhere, and then there's the contamination by treatments as well as a host of pest, parasites and pathogens.

So, while I might not be answering your question, I am giving Steve a heads up on how to prove off-target, environmental pesticide contamination from abraded seed dust.

The Italians developed the experimental design.

As we all know, it was very effective. :applause:

 

Use dust traps on your property. Forget about trying to prove that it's poisoning your bees.

Prove that poisoned dust is contaminating your property due to a product defect.

That's actionable.

 

Where are we going with this discussion? Do you plan to go file a lawsuit against your framer neighbor? I can't control any farmer who farms around me. I can control where my bees are. As beekeepers, the message here is, take care where you keep your bees. If that doesn't do it for you, go sue someone.

 

...As beekeepers, the message here is, take care where you keep your bees..

I could not move my bees, I have no other place to go

 

You forgot that Steve can sue everyone involved, including the seed drill manufacturer.

 

When lawsuits happen, any good lawyer that's earning what you're paying him would include pretty much everyone even theoretically connected in some way with the problem as a defendant in the lawsuit. That would include yeah the chemical manufacturer, the chemical dealer, the individual chemical salesperson by name, the manufacturer of the equipment designed to handle and dispense the chemical or chemically-treated seeds, the dealer of that equipment, the farmer, the owner of the land (if it's not one of the above), and probably the USDA and/or relevant state DA that approved the chemical. The expectation is that some or even most of these defendants will be able to remove themselves from the suit in one way or another, but you put them all in there at the beginning anyway just in case they can't or don't manage to do so.

 

Tut, tut, tut. Let's not forget who the plaintiff is.

Steve isn't just any beekeeper.

 

He is should he find himself in a courtroom.

 

He won't be alone.

 

Nor would the other side. Have you ever had to go before a judge and be cross examined and fight for something you felt was right? I have, and I can tell you, NO ONE gets everything they want or think is right.

 

Yes. But, I usually let counsel handle the details.

The farmer is the one who is going to take the fall because his co defendants will demonstrate his negligence.

He is the one who will be alone and just a farmer.

However, Steve needs to get his evidence in order first. If uses dust traps, etc. . He can win. If he goes for the bee kills, he'll lose.

 

However, Steve needs to get his evidence in order first. If uses dust traps, etc. . He can win. If he goes for the bee kills, he'll lose.

Give him a call and talk it over with him. Get back and let us know how it went.

 

So your saying that if farmer "John" plants his crop on his side of the fence line and his neighbor "Pete" plants his crop on his side of the fence line. Then "Pete" does some aerial spraying and has drift and kills "John's" Crop
it's "John's" fault because he should of never planted his crop on his own land knowing that "Pete" might spray.
I am not saying that I know if the bees crossed the property line and went to the neighbors but there is not much forage in a just planted corn field.

Randy

 

I am not saying that I know if the bees crossed the property line and went to the neighbors but there is not much forage in a just planted corn field.

Randy

A good point. An important point; but not good enough all by itself.