Yeah, I hate it when I put the box's back together and someone's head and thorax is stickingout


Crazy when you uncap some drones and no one moves a lick. Pretty lifeless until they actually hatch. If these guys were writhing and screaming when mite checks were done, I believe there would be less checks being performed.

But even larva pulsate in the jelly, funny more mature pupa don't show more signs of life.
Poor drones, they don't get no love. And even if they do..they still die

DO small hive beatles and mites feel pain?

There are a lot of folks that sure hope so :waiting:

 

Crazy when you uncap some drones and no one moves a lick. Pretty lifeless until they actually hatch. If these guys were writhing and screaming when mite checks were done, I believe there would be less checks being performed.

But even larva pulsate in the jelly, funny more mature pupa don't show more signs of life.
Poor drones, they don't get no love. And even if they do..they still die

Lauri,

There was a really creepy story in Analog Science Fiction and Fact by David Brin a couple of months ago, speculating on the nature of metamorphosis. Brin is a physicist but usually researches his science pretty well. His description of the transition between larvum and adult insect pretty much matched my experience with trying to extract early-stage pupae from drone cells during a varroa freeze-out exercise this past summer. I'd needed to pull the frame before the purple-eye stage, and the pupae were pure mush. Brin describes the process that way. Except for a few cells, the larvae pretty much turn to mush and are rebuilt, and for all intents and purposes the larvum and the adult are totally different entities.

What got creepy and science-fictional was his speculations on applying that to human beings.

 

According to experts on Reddit:

"No".


I suppose I'm feeling cheeky. Spend a few minutes on google, I'm sure you'll find many contrary positions, even within the scientific community. The answer is complicated it seems and plenty of experts will advise that it takes a lot more than some nerve endings to equal perception of pain. The users on this forum won't settle the question (though that won't keep us all from trying). ;-)

The pressing question then is ... so what? What does the answer, either way, mean to you?

 

The pressing question then is ... so what? What does the answer, either way, mean to you?

Firstly because for me it is important to know if the bees feel pain because it will help me to better understand their behavior. I can call this intellectual curiosity or rationality.

Secondly because as most human beings on this planet I have a thing called empathy. Put myself in the place of another , even if it is an insect . I can call it humanism.

Thirdly, because the best known of my bees , and to be more human / empathetic with them according to their needs, I can come to have better harvests . This reason I can call professionalism.

I hope I have been clear in the exposition of these simple ideas .

 

How about emotions? I've seen a wide range first hand, especially with the queen rearing. I'm not talking about temperament or behavior.

Take a young queen out of her hive that hatched out in that hive (never been handled) and she'll be frightened.

Not all of them, I'd say about 30%. Mark her and put her back and she'll look for a 'consoling feeding' from nurse bees immediatly.

Virgins hatched out in an incubator and previously handled usually don't show that behavior when handled again at around 3 weeks.



Some young queens are bold and confident, some are timid and submissive. But that frightened/consoling behavior is surprising to see. I've said before, I can tell a lot about the temperment of a future hive by the way the virgin queen acted when handled soon after hatching.
If I have a queen that stings me as a hatchling while marking she is immediatly pinched. That rarely happens, but I had a whole batch (From a line I won't mention)that got culled soon after hatching. My experience has shown me those aggressive virgin queens, if placed, will develop into colonies that are no fun to work.

Marked and getting fed by one bee, new spot getting checked out by another

More consoling

Satisfied she's not hurt

Getting back to work

Heres a virign queen just hatched out of the incubator eating a drop of honey off my finger. Not from fear,they are ravenous as soon as they hatch.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i50Yf8vVGWY

 

Take a young queen out of her hive that hatched out in that hive (never been handled) and she'll be frightened.
Not all of them, I'd say about 30%.
Virgins hatched out in an incubator and previously handled usually don't show that behavior when handled.

Are you sure the virgins you took from hive were of the same age as from the incubator?

 

I've collected a few partially paralyzed bees from the landing board, some disease in which the front legs work but the mid don't at all and the hind legs only partly. I've been known to put a drop of honey on a toothpick to feed them, and they take it eagerly. And then I dispatch them as quickly as I can.

'Cause bees are not just bugs.

Is it empathy that made this one worker bee feed a drone that had been kicked out of the hive? I get the impression not all the workers get the memo at the same time. Some are in eviction mode, others are still soft touches for a beggar. Maybe they know which ones they share a dad with? It was kinda funny to watch.

 

Who knows? But think about what is says about us and our lives that we have the time and energy to even consider such a question.

 

But think about what is says about us and our lives that we have the time and energy to even consider such a question.

In my opinion, understanding the behavior & body language of a species..IE, bees, farm animals, wild game, is key to humans successful management, training or harvest. Not only will it make you more successful in your endeavors, it can keep you from getting hurt.

Close observation & scrutiny is a good way to gain that perspective.

 

In the tree of life how many branches should separate us from this or that species so that these issues no longer make sense ? In my opinion find out about every living thing feels pain is so natural to seek to know , for example , what is the diet of this and that animal or insect . Or should there be issues taboos in science ?

What can we say to land a vehicle on a small asteroid millions of Kms of our planet?
What they tell about us?
Among many things one thing to say surely , we're curious and want to know the best and deeply as possible around us .

The problems of consciousness comes next , if they come , and only for some. And you know who am I referring to? Simply open youtube and see what some are doing with bees in the outside world , but more in some places and more in some continents . Just some!

 

There's nothing wrong with asking the question and seeking an answer. How do you think it will change how you manage/handle your bees and equipment?

I knew a person who cried every time they put a hive back together because bees were getting crushed.

 

"More than honey" is a film that shows some of the things I do not, nor will I do with my bees.

This is not to crush some bees , is much more than that !
You know the movie?

The trailer is here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wh_IRrBeu-0

 

I saw this the other day. It's pretty well done, but at times intentionally casts the beekeepers in a bad light without really explaining the why.

Is the automated frame scraper and splitting shown better or worse than letting an entire hive or apiary suffer and die from varroa and viruses in an attempt to produce "survivor stock"?

A film about commercial poultry processing vs backyard chickens would be equally shocking for many people. Most people have no real idea where their food comes from

 

That movie is an eye opener. I cried watching how the bees were processed while doing splits and harvesting honey. Poor things

 

Eduardo, do you have a reference so we can look up the research article?

 

Of course: http://mundoestranho.abril.com.br/materia/os-insetos-sentem-dor (portuguese language). It is not a scientific article , is a popular science article .

About the author: holds a degree in Biological Sciences from the University of São Paulo (1978 ) , MSc (1981 ) and doctorate (1985 ) Psychobiology , Federal University of São Paulo (1985 ) . Held internships Postdoctoral at the Institute of Psychiatry, University of London, University of Aarhus , Denmark , and University College London . In 1999 , he obtained the title of Lecturer , University of São Paulo . He is currently Associate Professor 3 University of São Paulo . He has experience in nervous physiology and develops research in Learning , Memory and Attention .

 

In addition , the animal is able to make an avoidance learning , moving away from something that causes you discomfort .

Once in a BeeNova -cource, supervised by Professor Bernd Grünewald, who has been studying the cellular basics of bees memory, we tried and somewhat succeeded in just couple of hours to teach bees. (different colours and scents coding sugar solutions and water, the bees learned to stick out their tongue according to colours and scents with sugar, if I remember correctly.)

(http://www.beenova.org/)
( http://en.institut-fuer-bienenkunde.de/cv-bg.aspx)

 

This is really anthropomorphic error. We are always attributing human emotions to the animals we keep and work with.

 

For us not to run the risk of anthropomorphizing it's necessary clarify about that matter that pain perception should be different in insects of pain perception in men . The Brazilian investigator firm on this point : ". Only you can not say that this pain is the same as ours , since men have a different kind of awareness of the insect 's sensory structures of these small animals are distributed in various parts of their skeleton . the insects also have different locking mechanisms of pain and more efficient than human . Through these mechanisms , a cheap continues to walk even after having a leg torn off. Something similar to what happens to a soldier who keeps fighting in the heat of battle and only later realize that he was wounded . "

 

Insects feel pain ?

Pain is a safety and survival mechanism. The only purpose of feeling pain is to avoid injury so...it seems logical that all animals feel pain. Also, that is the purpose of "fear" as well. You will note that many diabetics lose feeling in their feet and legs and will often have injuries, cuts, burns and bruises that they are not aware even aware of. They often develop severe infections because of these untended injuries. Pain is probably a requirement for survival of any animal species.

 

Then wouldn't you expect that when a bee stings that they would feel pain and somehow exhibit that feeling of pain? I have never heard a bee scream. If my modified sex organ was pulled out of my body I'd scream for sure.

When a queen's wing is clipped, does she feel the pain? Has anyone seen any exhibition of pain when doing that? Partially crushed bees that can still move show no pain that I can see.

What does a bee cringing from pain look like? They don't retract their bodies in any discernible way, from my observations. I don't know if that means that bees don't feel pain, but how do they exhibit that feeling of pain?

 

>>If my modified sex organ was pulled out of my body I'd scream for sure.
>Interesting. What have you had done to it?

Well, Mark, you walked right into that one...

 

Hahaha!! :lpf::lpf:

 

I'm betting on a Hello Kitty tattoo.

 

Huh?

 

I don't have a stinger, do you?

That's what a stinger is a modified sex organ. I don't get where you all are coming from.

 

I don't have a stinger, do you?

You said you had a modified sex organ: "If my modified sex organ was pulled out of my body..." Some people are interested in knowing what you did to it. Not me...I'll pass, thanks.

 

Perhaps Mark's fly is unzipped and he is unaware of it?
Just kidding Mark! I'll digress now....

 

Ouch, now that hurts.

No, actually I left on my own. I was not tossed.

Just because I didn't express myself well on the subject of pain about whether insects feel it or not I don't see why you feel a need to throw your feces at me. What did I do to you?

I know how humans express pain. I also know how people can live w/ intense pain and not show it. Having a son w/an amputated leg who is in constant pain. Were you to see him in trousers you would not know. But I can tell you for sure that when he was blown off his feet by an ied his pain was quite evident to those around him. I have never seen anything like that with a honeybee. Have you? What does it look like?

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. So just because I can't tell that a bee is in pain that doesn't mean they aren't. I would just like someone to show me or tell me what that would look like.

Wanna see that as trolling go ahead.

 

Ouch, now that hurts.

Gee, I wouldn't have known that 'cause, you know, you didn't scream or cringe.

I don't see why you feel a need to throw your feces at me. What did I do to you?

You have a well-known and obvious habit of trying to bait people into long and ridiculous arguments.

I expressed my opinion about why I think all animals must feel pain as a means of species survival. Animals that don't feel pain would die fairly early in their life cycle. A gazelle that doesn't try to run when it feels a lion's claws on its back obviously will not survive.

That's as far as *my* point went.

I would just like someone to show me or tell me what that would look like.

Google it...I'm sure there's something out there that will satisfy your curiosity.

 

I've never pulled the leg off of a bee to see what would happen but I imagine that it would hurt them thus they must feel some form of pain. As for clipping a wing...not sure those have nerve endings so it'd be much like cutting ones hair. I've watched a bee administer to a sqwuished bee so I wonder if besides guards, gravediggers and nurses they have EMT's too? That may be a little over the top. Just my thoughts and observations.

 

I've never pulled the leg off of a bee to see what would happen but I imagine that it would hurt them thus they must feel some form of pain.

I guess if you think something is so, then it must be so. Lots of people do that every day.

 

Sorry, Mark. I often forget that some folks don't share my sense of humor. Or maybe don't have one.

 

A man once told me that dogs don't feel pain... I was much younger then, and already knew that wasn't true. Since then I have been surprised by scientists, who seem intelligent, denying evidence that animals think, or plan, communicate, or have emotions.... These same scientists will say that human beings are animals, and I agree... we are mammals. Warm blooded, live bearing, omnivorous animals... We think, therefore it can not be said that animals don't think. We have language so it can not be said that animals don't. The claims that they don't seem to originate with people who should know better, but are in some sort of denial so that they can continue doing things that their morality would otherwise oppose.

 

I've never pulled the leg off of a bee to see what would happen but I imagine that it would hurt them thus they must feel some form of pain. As for clipping a wing...not sure those have nerve endings so it'd be much like cutting ones hair. I've watched a bee administer to a sqwuished bee so I wonder if besides guards, gravediggers and nurses they have EMT's too? That may be a little over the top. Just my thoughts and observations.

 

In the case of aquarium fish, I once read that they enjoy having water change outs... that one must do this for the health of fish. The person who said was keeping cichlids, I was keeping some too... I noticed that in their disputes they would pop open their gill plates and wiggle at each other. The person who said they loved water change outs said that they would do the same thing when he changed their water, and that it meant they were happy. Fish will go into shock if you dump them from water at one temperature to water of another temperature as little as ten degrees different. What would temperature difference would cause a human to go into shock... instantly. Lets say that you were in 100 degrees, and you fell into water that was say 40 degrees. That would about do it. I concluded that water changes did not make the fish happy, it made them "scream" in pain.

 

I kept a saltwater reef tank for 15 years. The reason that you do water change outs is to reduce the nutrient load so the fish are not poisoned by their own waste products (ammonia, nitrite, nitrate). It has nothing to do with fish happiness. If the water in your tank has a nitrate concentration of 10 mg/L and you change out half of the water, the nitrate concentration will be lowered to 5 mg/L.

As far as temperature differential, 10 degrees is extreme and you want to keep it to less than 2 degrees.

 

They don't share a dad with any of the drones. They do share a grandad.

An article in American Bee Journal this month claims there is nepotism among the bees from the same father and that they seem to know who their full (super) sisters are.

 

I have also kept ferrets... They love to play in bags, and boots and whatnot... enclosed places. One time a ferret I had went into this bag, so, I picked the bag up, holding the top shot shook it, and let the ferret out. He responded by sticking his tail straight up in the air, hopping in these cute little circles and chirping... I thought he was happy.... If you see a ferret doing this, never assume it is happy... it is not... it wants to eat your eyeballs. Humans are notoriously bad at interpreting the body language of other animals.