[GregB]

My wife and I had lunch with Dr. Leo and the author of Beekeeping with a smile many years ago at the Mo. State Convention.
I cant recall his name and he passed away about a year later.
He was asking all kinds of questions about my Lang hives and he was very interested in my methods.
Dr. Leo on the other hand insisted that I was doing it all wrong even though its been working for 30 years for me.
Even my wife who was there for the crafting competition was very offended by his comments.
I am only about 60 miles from him now and still don't care for his methods.
I have had phone calls from people asking what to do about there bees and first question is what kind of hive do they have. If they say one like Dr. Leo has I tell them to call him. Reply He wants to charge to answer questions.
My reply I have no idea how his hives work and wish them luck.

Of course those people can come to Beesource and get free advice here.
Some of us here know how Dr. Leo hives work.

But people also have Google and Youtube (and Beesource "search" function)..
Totally free to use.
And, frankly, I'd sent people away to do their own searching (instead the spending my time rehashing the same old subjects for them).

Speaking of the "wrong ways" is wrong.
There are preferred ways.
Those preferred ways should fit your needs and preferences and abilities.
However (and this is my own rant) - most people are plainly unaware of the options and are very rigid about it too - this is where I will support Dr. Leo (just will not charge to answer questions, but because I don't need to charge and don't have to answer either).

 

[little_john]

Most people make assumptions about Dr. Leo's approach without ever having been to a seminar. There is a reason there is a paucity of videos online of his talks- he wants people to pay for the service he is offering. Good or ill I'd suggest it is difficult to develop a full appreciation for what he is suggesting people do unless you've been to hear what he actually has to say.

Does it not occur to you that there might be another, 'more suspect' reason, such as avoiding widespread criticism and/or ridicule ?

I don't think it's always necessary to have first-hand experience of something in order to form a judgement regarding it. For example, you wouldn't expect those who legislate against harmful drugs such as heroin to have had first-hand experience of addiction before passing appropriate laws. To be aware of their effect upon others is considered adequate knowledge - likewise towards socially harmful phenomena, such as religious (and beekeeping ?) cults.

I hold negative views about Sharashkin, based primarily upon his 'guru' status, his intolerance of other proven beekeeping methods, and his unrelenting marketing and self-promotion.
LJ

 

[BEE J]

I cant recall his name and he passed away about a year later.
He was asking all kinds of questions about my Lang hives and he was very interested in my methods.

His name is Fedor Lazutin (I'm a fan ). The fact that he was interested in your success, and open to new ideas is a great indicator.

He sounds like he acts the way he writes -that he was truly more interested in the benefit of the bees than selling his hive or program. Also, from what I've read he's not against other ways of beekeeping than his, he said if the work why not use them?

Right now I am following his system of beekeeping but may later modify or change completely to what works for me and my bees.

(P.s I think it's so cool that you got to have lunch with him, I wish I could have met him myself).

 

[Hoot Owl Lane Bees]

Yes that was him. I have his book at home in Mo. but we are in Pa. due to a family emergency.
We were very surprised at the differences in opinions being they were traveling on tore together.
I may reread it this winter.

 

[Litsinger]

Does it not occur to you that there might be another, 'more suspect' reason, such as avoiding widespread criticism and/or ridicule ?

You might be right, LJ. I can only go by the rationale he gave at the conference I participated in. And good point about the need for first-hand experience- in such cases we tend to rely upon the opinions of sources we trust and/or those who have first-hand experience.

 

[birddog]

Don't drink the kool-aid,

 

[William Bagwell]

Don't drink the kool-aid,

Was just a sip, have sense enough to not down the whole pitcher!

Interesting thread, now understand where the animosity is directed. No need to feel shame in enjoying the book.

 

[Gray Goose]

Was just a sip, have sense enough to not down the whole pitcher!

Interesting thread, now understand where the animosity is directed. No need to feel shame in enjoying the book.

William,
i ordered a couple of the books from his site. the class caused me sticker shock, considering the travel and overnight costs as well.
there are nuggets in the books, and well worth the read.
IF you have the funds, and like the bee vacation idea, then by all means go.
not sure "all in" is the way to go with his methods, but I ended up building the double deep long lang from the plans section of his book, was a good decision, the hive works different and is managed different, than the lang ones ,I also have. I have 2 today I am about to go out and make 5-7 NUCs as I pulled the queen 10 days ago from the tan one.
for this function they are great. last year I make 6 NUCs after one was "left to swarm"

if there is room in your bee world for some additional ideas, then Leo can be a source, tempered with what you already know.
IMO starting there and only having his "ways" can lead you off the trail.
your base of knowledge should suffice to keep you from over indulging in the Kool aid.

good luck

GG

 

[little_john]

Interesting thread, now understand where the animosity is directed. No need to feel shame in enjoying the book.

I found it to be a strange read ...
It's purported to be a book written by Lazutin, and edited by Sharashkin - only it's not: at least not in my understanding of the word "edited". It begins very much as Lazutin's work (or certainly appears so) - as it makes references to specific regions of Russia where the natural approach to beekeeping has been feasible - but, further on in the book it gradually becomes apparent that the primary aim of the book has surreptitiously shifted towards hive designs marketed by HorizontalHive.com - references to which, by the way, occur seventeen times within the book. (I was able to count these quite effortlessly as I possess a .pdf copy of the book which I pulled off the Internet. Whether this is a legitimate copy or not, I really couldn't say)

There are quite a few errors in the book, such as Varroa mites attaching themselves to the bees' neck (rather than burying themselves under the abdominal plates), and the Layens Hive having been invented by Georges de Layens in 1864 for use in mountainous areas, which afterwards became popular in Russia.

But Layens did NOT invent the hive which now bears his name - he popularised an already existing hive by writing a book about it. It is not known who actually invented the hive, nor when, and - as it so closely resembles hive types found in the Ukraine and surrounding districts - it's far more likely that it's origin is to be found there, and that at some point the hive 'migrated' into France. It has certainly become popular for use in the mountainous areas of Spain for example, but this occurred after the popularisation by Layens of a pre-existing design.

From the Preface of his book, "The Breeding of Bees by Modern Methods, Theory and Practice in Seventeen Lessons", Second Edition, 1879:
"Not being an inventor of new beehives, we have simply chosen, among the best models, that which seemed to us the easiest to manage, and the most in harmony with the natural instincts of the bees. Moreover, this hive has already been proven in the hands of many beekeepers."

And, from the Sixth Lesson:
"Before describing the hive I have adopted, which will be the subject of my next lesson, let me tell you that I am not an inventor of hives, for there are already too many; I have simply adopted a model that has been proven for many years."

So - as it has now become clear that de Layens didn't actually invent the beehive which today bears his name, can we expect Sharashkin to correct this error within his website and book ? I somehow doubt it.
LJ

 

[William Bagwell]

I found it to be a strange read ...
It's purported to be a book written by Lazutin, and edited by Sharashkin - only it's not: at least not in my understanding of the word "edited". It begins very much as Lazutin's work (or certainly appears so) - as it makes references to specific regions of Russia where the natural approach to beekeeping has been feasible - but, further on in the book it gradually becomes apparent that the primary aim of the book has surreptitiously shifted towards hive designs marketed by HorizontalHive.com - references to which, by the way, occur seventeen times within the book. (I was able to count these quite effortlessly as I possess a .pdf copy of the book which I pulled off the Internet. Whether this is a legitimate copy or not, I really couldn't say)

Noticed that as well, just never thought to count. Used copies of the first edition are still available, slightly higher price. Curious what (if anything) got cut to make room for the additions in the 2nd. Anyone have both and knows?

@Gray Goose which one do you recommend next? Have Beekeeping With a Smile.

 

[GregB]

I found it to be a strange read ...
It's purported to be a book written by Lazutin, and edited by Sharashkin - only it's not: at least not in my understanding of the word "edited". It begins very much as Lazutin's work (or certainly appears so) - as it makes references to specific regions of Russia where the natural approach to beekeeping has been feasible - but, further on in the book it gradually becomes apparent that the primary aim of the book has surreptitiously shifted towards hive designs marketed by HorizontalHive.com - references to which, by the way, occur seventeen times within the book. (I was able to count these quite effortlessly as I possess a .pdf copy of the book which I pulled off the Internet. Whether this is a legitimate copy or not, I really couldn't say)

Now hold it.
I NEVER read the Sharashkin "edited" version.
Why?
Why should I - if I can the read the very original by Lazutin.

Now I see the first time about references to the HorizontalHive.com in the book by Lazutin (clearly an afterthought and a marketing gimmick).
Thanks @little_john for bringing up this curious fact.

So now - let me remind about the fact that Lazutin in his book downgraded the Ukrainian hives - because in his view the Ukrainian frame was too small and that promoted excessive swarming.
Well, the Layen's frame is smaller than Ukrainian frame.
By extension, Lazutin downgraded the Layens hive as well (as even less suitable due to even smaller frame).

Also - Lazutin was not aware (nothing mentioned in the book) about vertical compact hives (various Warre-based off-shoots).
He is praising the idea of the bee tree - and yet not a single reference to the vertical hives that I can recall (maybe I forget).

Had he familiarize himself with the ergonomic vertical hives, he very well could have changed his tune.
We'll never know now. Sad.

All of his speculations are based on the traditional Dadant and Root (Lang in the US) hives.
So he ends up with his Lazutin frame.

I will just simply state, the original author operated off rather a limited, narrow knowledge base.

All in all - the readers of the "edited" book must understand - it is market oriented "edit" of the original manuscript.
There is nothing wrong with it; I am sure it is a good and useful resource still - as long as you understand the entire context.

And btw, the translating and editing of the book was still a great deal of work - nothing to be scoffed at.
And btw, I will give all kinds of credit to the said "edited" book because it still promotes alternative and worthy method of non-commercial, ergonomic beekeeping.
I am yet to do something similar about a different hive (just placed onto a back burner).

 

[Gray Goose]

Noticed that as well, just never thought to count. Used copies of the first edition are still available, slightly higher price. Curious what (if anything) got cut to make room for the additions in the 2nd. Anyone have both and knows?

@Gray Goose which one do you recommend next? Have Beekeeping With a Smile.

as I recall the other book I ordered was :
Keeping Bees in Horizontal Hives:
A Complete Guide to Apiculture
Georges de Layens & Gaston Bonnier
Dr. Leo Sharashkin (editor)

has a lot of basics
hopefully you can find one used somewhere he wants 50$ for one.

GG

 

[little_john]

as I recall the other book I ordered was :
Keeping Bees in Horizontal Hives: A Complete Guide to Apiculture, Georges de Layens & Gaston Bonnier
Dr. Leo Sharashkin (editor)
has a lot of basics
hopefully you can find one used somewhere he wants 50$ for one.

That book: 'Keeping Bees in Horizontal Hives' has given me one helluva headache ...

Sharashkin describes this book by Layens and Bonnier as being a classic work ... and yet when I searched BnF Gallica (digital reproductions of historical works - now public domain - sourced from within the collections of the National Library of France), plenty of titles for both Layens and Bonnier (both as joint authors and separate) were returned ... but nothing with the title 'Keeping Bees in Horizontal Hives', either with an English title or the French equivalent. So it would appear that it has never existed under that title.

So I turned to the WorldCat, where it was pretty-much the same story: plenty of 'Complete Courses in Apiculture', but no 'Keeping Bees in Horizontal Hives'.
That is, until on a hunch I tried "Layens, Horizontal Hive" as search terms. That threw up the title "Keeping bees in horizontal hives: a complete guide to apiculture" by Layens and Bonnier and, although the WorldCat says there have been no reviews - there was indeed one right at the bottom of the page: Keeping bees in horizontal hives : a complete guide to apiculture (Book, 2017) [WorldCat.org]

This review was from Kafl of GoodReads, who writes:
"In parts quite interesting but a lot of it deals with skep hives and the plans for beekeepers to transfer their hives from the fixed frame[sic] skeps to moveable frame hives. I would love to say the book gave me ideas how to transfer my vertical hives to horizontal hives but i can't say it did. But still an interesting read with some new aspects."

Now that's pretty-much how I would describe the 1879 Layens 2nd Edition which I've been translating (and which should be freely available in a week or so) - the only obvious significant difference in the later (1897) Bonnier edition is the change from reed-based hive walls to a 100% wooden structure - but the emphasis on transferring bees from skeps to a movable deep comb hive appears to be pretty-much the same.

It was only when I visited the GoodReads site: Kafl's review of Keeping Bees in Horizontal Hives that Sharashkin's name appeared as the 'editor' of that book - so - mystery solved.

At minimum Sharashkin has changed Layens & Bonnier's book title - no doubt for his own marketing purposes. Whether or not he's adulterated the text as with Lazutin's book I really couldn't say as I've not been able to source a free copy of it - and I ain't gonna buy one at those prices. Seems that man has no shame, and no respect for historical authenticity.

If anyone wants a copy of the original "Cours complet d'apiculture" by Layens & Bonnier - in French - it can be freely downloaded from: Cours complet d'apiculture : (culture des abeilles) / par MM. Georges de Layens,... et Gaston Bonnier,... | Gallica
LJ

 

[GregB]

Well, thanks to LJ's hints above, I looked up a physical copy of the book in my own library system.
Cool, I thought.
Let me then order it and look, because I can.

Well - it seems someone borrowed it permanently.

 

[Litsinger]

Saw this post on FB and I was reminded of this thread:

 

[Gray Goose]

Saw this post on FB and I was reminded of this thread:

View attachment 70601

something about old dogs and new tricks come to mind.
nice to see the adjustment.

A step in the right direction.
who know maby he is reading Gregs threads under an assumed name

GG

 

[GregB]

something about old dogs and new tricks come to mind.
nice to see the adjustment.

A step in the right direction.
who know maby he is reading Gregs threads under an assumed name

GG

Even there he missed to underline a crucial fact - catching a swarm does not automatically equal to obtaining "local bees" (let alone "feral bees").
What is so hard to clarify to your followers about this?

Teach them about the populations a little bit - some will get the point.

A swarm of bees is a sample point of your local bee population status.
You have lots of ferals - then the swarm could be feral (and local, by implication).
You have lots of imported/commercial bees - then the swarm is more likely to be an imported bee (whatever it happens to be).

And yet - the idea of catching swarms of "local bees" and then keeping them "treatment-free" keeps going around and around.
Again - try that in a Chicago suburb and see what "local bees" you get.
And so trivialization of this "local bee" idea is a disservice.

Back to Sharashkin, the lecturer, to make that correction.

PS: I will give that chasing the swarms in the highly imported location is still a fun lottery - you could catch a swarm of MH or ankle-biters just as well (these are ALL imports);
this is one reason I will NOT automatically re-queen a swarm - that would be a silly thing to do;
but I will also NOT hive a swarm without treating them clean - 90% of them die without an OA shower as my experience has it by now

 

[Litsinger]

Thought about this thread today when watching a Fred Dunn interview with Dr. Leo from last year. From about the 57 minute point on he articulates more clearly than any other place that I've found online the limitations of his approach and the precepts regarding the synergistic factors at work that confer success. Well with the watch IMHO:

 

[GregB]

From about the 57 minute point on he articulates more clearly than any other place that I've found online the limitations of his approach and the precepts regarding the synergistic factors at work that confer success. Well with the watch IMHO:

Now he is talking!
Of which most of us knew already.

PS: I just realized the video was posted on April 2, 2022; it's been posted over a year;

Still when I communicated with him directly back in 2017 yet via emails - importance of the local bees was never mentioned in our back and forth.

That was most likely not understood at that moment yet on his part - assuming that most everyone has similar situation to his own.
This is where the idea of catching swarms of supposed "feral bees" comes from even if you are located in the Chicago suburbia, as if no difference exists.

That point should have been the #1 and drilled into the heads of the audience.

 

[Hoot Owl Lane Bees]

Dr, Leo posted a new video talking with Michael Palmer.

I am disappointed I was not able to visit Michael last weekend because one of the drivers did not come.
We were in the area for a wedding and I was invited to visit, but I was driving the van and could not leave the family with out transportation.