[Litsinger]

One who is posting this is selling mis-information to those who don't know any better and are looking for magic (there are always suckers for magic).

So I had the opportunity to attend Dr. Leo's conference last fall with Kirk Webster, and I was glad I went. The conference was chock full of practical advice and more than a few warnings about what can happen if you do not have access to suitable genetics and/or fail to recognize and act on hive cues or changing threats- Dr. Leo spent quite a lot of air time at the meeting discussing recent run ins with SHB, which had caused him to have to adjust his management protocol.

When you dig into the actual agenda for the meeting, you can see the plan is to cover a lot of ground regarding genetics, hive type, management, etc. based on the situation on the ground where you're located:

https://horizontalhive.com/natural-beekeeping-conference/natural-beekeeping-missouri.pdf

I think what we may be observing here is the distinction between marketing and cold-hard reality- any consumer industry that comes to mind uses marketing to emphasize the benefits while minimizing the risks in an attempt to encourage a purchase - and I don't think we should hold Dr. Leo to a standard above what we expect of anyone else in the industry.

As an example, when is the last time you saw this in the Mann Lake catalog:

2 pound packages made in Georgia will be available for you in Wisconsin to purchase a month before you should really be installing them - oh, and by the way these colonies have absolutely no resistance to varroa whatever- so plan on treating them early and often with OAV. You do have an EZVap don't you? But don't worry- if you mess up, we'll always have more next year... but they'll cost a little more. Oh, and by the way- it's possible that the queen we've included might be rejected by the colony or turn up a drone layer, so make sure you inspect in two weeks and plan on calling us in a panic to order a replacement queen. Better yet, might want to plan on 3 colonies to start with, because you're going to kill one this season due to beekeeper error and one will die by no fault of your own - that way you'll still have bees at Christmas time to impress your visiting relatives who will have seen on Facebook that you are now 'into beekeeping'.

 

[GregB]

and I don't think we should hold Dr. Leo to a standard above what we expect of anyone else in the industry.

It is true.

But also, IF I was doing similar workshops - I would at the very least remove those statements (I quoted above) from the workshop description.
Without thinking too hard - those exact statements reduce the credibility of the entire thing in my eyes (add to this the very risky tree-climbing/swarm-trapping ideology promotion - totally unnecessary and misleading as well - the tree-climbing part, to be clear).

It is shame.
This is because with very few adjustments Dr. Sharashkin's program has lots of merits and utility and real potential.
As for me, I would somehow transform those cheap gimmicks into a different but yet still attractive message.

 

[GregB]

As an example, when is the last time you saw this in the Mann Lake catalog:

2 pound packages made in Georgia will be available for you in Wisconsin to purchase a month before you should really be installing them - oh, and by the way these colonies have absolutely no resistance to varroa whatever- so plan on treating them early and often with OAV. You do have an EZVap don't you? But don't worry- if you mess up, we'll always have more next year... but they'll cost a little more. Oh, and by the way- it's possible that the queen we've included might be rejected by the colony or turn up a drone layer, so make sure you inspect in two weeks and plan on calling us in a panic to order a replacement queen. Better yet, might want to plan on 3 colonies to start with, because you're going to kill one this season due to beekeeper error and one will die by no fault of your own - that way you'll still have bees at Christmas time to impress your visiting relatives who will have seen on Facebook that you are now 'into beekeeping'.

This is exactly the example which a serious person should use to differentiate themselves.
But that same very serious person should state up front - you very well may fail in your Wisconsin suburb when trying to replicate what I am doing.
Here is WHY.....

Then talk about the "why" part in very fine detail.
Also - redefine the "success" part - meaning "one visit per year" will transform into "four visits per year" in different locations - this is still a success (due to different circumstances).
Put this up the web site too.

 

[BEE J]

This is exactly the example which a serious person should use to differentiate themselves.
But that same very serious person should state up front - you very well may fail in your Wisconsin suburb when trying to replicate what I am doing.
Here is WHY.....

Then talk about the "why" part in very fine detail.
Put this up the web site too.

This seems kind of like a balance between being sincerely honest, so your customer is well educated, but not overwhelming them with to many cons -so that they get scared out of buying (or starting beekeeping).

I believe this discussion is really about marketing. Interesting!

 

[crofter]

A partial quote from Russ:

"I think what we may be observing here is the distinction between marketing and cold-hard reality- any consumer industry that comes to mind uses marketing to emphasize the benefits while minimizing the risks in an attempt to encourage a purchase - "

So true, but I have to admit becoming more and more browned off when I perceive lop sided encouragement and unbalanced portrayal of probable outcomes. No doubt it is a fact that many people would not fall in if they were initially shown the unsweetened reality. Marketing sure is not for the benefit of the bees.

Doctor Leo is undoubtedly a sharp marketer and would be a good case study for someone with marketing aspirations.

 

[GregB]

I will hang up (repeatedly) this YT channel from a WI lady with her two Layen's hives.

This year she got her two packages of Buckfast in hopes that the outcome will be different.
This is such a good demo channel of an inexperienced beekeeper who attempts to replicate Leo S. beekeeping model down to the letter (perfect hives, minimal invasion, and all).

She (accidentally! since she did not know any better) documented her mite crashes in October 2021.
Keep track of it and see what happens in October 2022.

I did suggest to her to review the mite control situation - which pretty much went unheard.
The point of installing those packages was the perfect timing to conduct a clean start using OAD (which was blown) - could have been sufficient to even make it into the 2023.

You already know my prediction - she will be buying new bees in spring 2023 (unnecessarily).

https://www.youtube.com/c/BeeLogwithSuperBeeShirleyandBBSBees

 

[ursa_minor]

This seems kind of like a balance between being sincerely honest, so your customer is well educated, but not overwhelming them with to many cons -so that they get scared out of buying (or starting beekeeping).

Maybe so, but if they are scared out of buying with the truth then so be it, is it better they learn after they have lost multiple hives to mismanagement caused by not telling them the whole truth? I think not.

The glossing over serves no purpose except to discourage those who fail when they follow the proposed method and they then feel they must be terrible at beekeeping, terrible at caring for bees and just terrible at the whole business. If they go in with eyes wide open to all the pitfalls they will come out better at the end of it without feeling like a total incompetent. Beekeeping is hard, selling it as anything but is IMO misrepresenting the truth in order to garner sales.

Slick marketing strategies that gloss over the reality tick me off, right from those who sell old varieties of plants with new more attractive names, those peddling fantastical cures for ills to those peddling 'easy' beekeeping methods. Look a person straight in the eye, tell them the honest truth and guess what, most people will accept all the caveats without question.

 

[Litsinger]

This is exactly the example which a serious person should use to differentiate themselves.

So true, but I have to admit becoming more and more browned off when I perceive lop sided encouragement and unbalanced portrayal of probable outcomes.

Look a person straight in the eye, tell them the honest truth and guess what, most people will accept all the caveats without question.

I agree with all these sentiments- I appreciate a square deal and earnestly try to employ the Golden Rule in my own dealings.

I am not defending Dr. Leo on the basis that I necessarily agree with his approach - only that I think we do well to apply a similar standard to all purveyors of apicultural products and services.

Truth be known, most bee industry marketers can probably be accused of possibly glossing-over some of the less attractive or less successful aspects of their product or service.

As @crofter sagely reminds us from time to time: 'Caveat Emptor'.

 

[GregB]

only that I think we do well to apply a similar standard to all purveyors of apicultural products and services.

Yep.
Just like the cases where some unsuspecting nuc buyers honestly think that the nucleus queen was producing excellent laying pattern at the point of sale (see recent talk).
Only to be reminded by some Beesource persons that the brood and the queen (just purchased) are NOT necessarily even related.

 

[crofter]

I have seen it written that a corporation's first responsibility is to their shareholders return on investment. Dr. Leo does not have the same corporate image up front so he will take more Flak than Mann Lake for instance. We can lament about it but really the situation amounts to "whatever the market will bear". There are lots of far worse operators than this.
Some people that do speaking engagements dont purvey such a large component of wishful thinking. Thinking of Michael Palmer or Roger Patterson; they are not trying to capitalize on the dreams of the innocents.

 

[Litsinger]

Frank:

You make some good counter-points on this score. Two thoughts:

1. Dr. Leo makes quite an emphasis that he is plowing company profits back into preserving Ozark wildness- so he may take more of a 'corporate' approach to profit taking under a perspective of supporting the greater good.

2. Most people make assumptions about Dr. Leo's approach without ever having been to a seminar. There is a reason there is a paucity of videos online of his talks- he wants people to pay for the service he is offering. Good or ill I'd suggest it is difficult to develop a full appreciation for what he is suggesting people do unless you've been to hear what he actually has to say.

 

[Gray Goose]

Maybe so, but if they are scared out of buying with the truth then so be it, is it better they learn after they have lost multiple hives to mismanagement caused by not telling them the whole truth? I think not.

The glossing over serves no purpose except to discourage those who fail when they follow the proposed method and they then feel they must be terrible at beekeeping, terrible at caring for bees and just terrible at the whole business. If they go in with eyes wide open to all the pitfalls they will come out better at the end of it without feeling like a total incompetent. Beekeeping is hard, selling it as anything but is IMO misrepresenting the truth in order to garner sales.

Slick marketing strategies that gloss over the reality tick me off, right from those who sell old varieties of plants with new more attractive names, those peddling fantastical cures for ills to those peddling 'easy' beekeeping methods. Look a person straight in the eye, tell them the honest truth and guess what, most people will accept all the caveats without question.

I tried that a couple times.
looked the person in the eye and said "you are not the kind of person to be a bee keeper" and "it is a waste of my time to help you, I decline the invitation"
I had several people say , why were you so hard on her, you really broke her bubble etc.

to save face I now need to sugar coat it with "I really do not have the time" etc.

so there also are people who cannot handle the truth.

been on both sides of this

GG

 

[jtgoral]

I have seen it written that a corporation's first responsibility is to their shareholders return on investment. Dr. Leo does not have the same corporate image up front so he will take more Flak than Mann Lake for instance. We can lament about it but really the situation amounts to "whatever the market will bear". There are lots of far worse operators than this.
Some people that do speaking engagements dont purvey such a large component of wishful thinking. Thinking of Michael Palmer or Roger Patterson; they are not trying to capitalize on the dreams of the innocents.

As a retired software engineer I can say that both free Open Source and for profit Microsoft, Apple and tons of others make good software.... I think Dr.Leo, Michel Palmer and Roger Patterson do good to beekeeping. It is your choice if you want to stay with beekeeper's Open Source or pay for the know-how or use both.

 

[BEE J]

As a retired software engineer...

It's funny, I'm in training to become one.
Software engineer's seem to pick up quite interesting hobby's. 😄

I can say that both free Open Source and for profit Microsoft, Apple and tons of others make good software.... It is your choice if you want to stay with beekeeper's Open Source or pay for the know-how or use both.

It's like with my code schooling. There is a MASSIVE amount of free code tutorials and info. out there on the web today. And while I utilize some of that great, free information, to help me with my studies, we decided to pay for a pro membership with Codeacadamy.com instead. And I must say that the paid schooling has been worth EVERY PENNY!
The amount of well presented information at this site is amazing, and it would probably be hard to find a curriculum, like this, for free anywhere else on the web!

 

[crofter]

As a retired software engineer I can say that both free Open Source and for profit Microsoft, Apple and tons of others make good software.... I think Dr.Leo, Michel Palmer and Roger Patterson do good to beekeeping. It is your choice if you want to stay with beekeeper's Open Source or pay for the know-how or use both.

Can you please clarify the significance of this in terms other than computer related?

 

[jtgoral]

Can you please clarify the significance of this in terms other than computer related?

My second and third sentences say it.

 

[ursa_minor]

As a retired software engineer I can say that both free Open Source and for profit Microsoft, Apple and tons of others make good software.... I think Dr.Leo, Michel Palmer and Roger Patterson do good to beekeeping. It is your choice if you want to stay with beekeeper's Open Source or pay for the know-how or use both.

Yes it is the person's choice to pay or not pay for information. Yet, if Apple had you pay for a class and then gave you software that would crash every year in the fall from a virus if you followed their method of running it, and still marketed their way as the best, but Microsoft provided the same software for free and told you of the pitfalls of the methods of running it so you could mitigate or at least understand how to avoid the crash would you not say that Microsoft at least was a bit more open and honest??

 

[crofter]

My second and third sentences say it.

The meaning of the second sentence is clear; In the first and the third there appears to me to be something like talking behind your hand. Talking behind your hand is an analogy of trying to be mysterious or equivocal about your meaning; spit it out!

 

[GregB]

Yes it is the person's choice to pay or not pay for information. Yet, if Apple had you pay for a class and then gave you software that would crash every year in the fall from a virus if you followed their method of running it, and still marketed their way as the best, but Microsoft provided the same software for free and told you of the pitfalls of the methods of running it so you could mitigate or at least understand how to avoid the crash would you not say that Microsoft at least was a bit more open and honest??

Being in IT myself, I very much like this open-software/free-software vs. the closed-software/proprietary-software comparison.
Yes, we at my work depend on the paid-for proprietary-software - but surely our system does not crash and burn at the end of every summer (predictably too!).

 

[Hoot Owl Lane Bees]

My wife and I had lunch with Dr. Leo and the author of Beekeeping with a smile many years ago at the Mo. State Convention.
I cant recall his name and he passed away about a year later.
He was asking all kinds of questions about my Lang hives and he was very interested in my methods.
Dr. Leo on the other hand insisted that I was doing it all wrong even though its been working for 30 years for me.
Even my wife who was there for the crafting competition was very offended by his comments.
I am only about 60 miles from him now and still don't care for his methods.
I have had phone calls from people asking what to do about there bees and first question is what kind of hive do they have. If they say one like Dr. Leo has I tell them to call him. Reply He wants to charge to answer questions.
My reply I have no idea how his hives work and wish them luck.