This should be re-posted in the spring.
You're right, but it's too late this year, and people won't remember this in the spring when they start their hives.

I more than doubled my hives this year, but only took 60 lbs of honey from 8 hives (2 deeps and 1 medium for each lang for winter), and took nothing
from my top bar hives.
Bees cost honey or money.
I'll keep the money and take the hit in honey.
The bees will make more next year.

 

I hear there are beekeepers wintering nucleus colonies in the north, and getting off the package treadmill. Rumor has it this is going on everywhere fro Maine to Michigan and New York to Virginia. Can it be?

Is there any good information on BeeSource about this, or should I just jump on the wagon and buy packaged bees from the dealers?

 

Rumor has it this is going on everywhere fro Maine to Michigan and New York to Virginia. Can it be?

Hey don't forget us "other" northerners from the Pacific NW (WA state). I'm wintering 20 nucs this year thanks to you and some others.

Mike

 

Xcugat..Michael... I sell bees, but, I completely agree with you. If people would really take care of them, they can make a split or two in early Spring and still not hurt the parent colony, and have the new colony for only the cost of a new queen. You could also let your split make it's own queen from queen cells you will find in the Spring, and help reduce swarming. Only problem with them making their own queen is, you lose valuable time during the Spring honey flow, but, it is valuable experience for the new beekeeper, and every newbee should do it, just for the experience.

Get your name on the local Agriculture and Police Dept call list for swarm removal,(check with local and State requirements for this), might also want to team up with someone (if you don't have the experience) and do a cutout or trapout. Get as many free bees as you can.

If you are going to purchase, look into nucs vrs packages. Nucs are already established, queen laying, and will have a headstart on Package bees, but, they are a little more expensive.

I agree with Gord, repost this in the Spring. Good Info. Get the discussion started again.

Will be interesting to see how the bees come through the Winter, and how many colonies we have to work with.

cchoganjr

 

If people would really take care of them, they can make a split or two in early Spring and still not hurt the parent colony, and have the new colony for only the cost of a new queen.

Very well said Cleo, we push the pollen sub & syrup, not because we sell it, but, because it's the cheapest way to keep bees. You can take care of what you have in the late summer thru fall or you can spend a bundle next spring. I would rather not pack all that equipment from the field to the shop just to turn around next spring and pack it all back out to the field and fill it up.

 

@Mr. Hogan - you do realize that Michael Palmer has long been speaking out on the benefits of a "sustainable apiary" both in this forum and at bee events like EAS. Oh yes, and he produces queens and nucs that are highly sought after in my area.

 

xcugat, mr. palmer was being sarcastic, here ya go:

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?189642-Wintering-Nucs&highlight=overwintering

 

As much as Mr. Palmer extoles the virtues of nucs and local bees (which I too very much like), I'd like to extole the benefit of remembering what it's like starting out and maybe only having the time/money/personal resources to have, say, two hives. Very small hobby beekeepers like this shouldn't be scolded for not keeping more hives, and because local nucs/bees normally have to be ordered long in advance to ensure not being on a waiting list where one may or may not get the bees, packages are a reliable, later-orderable option. Those two factors, reliable and late-orderable, are really what makes very small beekeepers who don't want to expand use packages.

I don't want to argue about the benefits of local bees because the benefits are clear, I'm just pointing out why packages are still ordered a lot, and why those who have expanded and can cover their own losses often forget that others cannot. This is akin to giving the advice of "just give them some frames of drawn comb" to a first year beekeeper who is staring at nothing but frames of foundation.

 

Interesting topic for me, an aspiring beekeeper with limited funds. Local nucs are not only expensive, but already sold-out. The downside of having so many newcomers to the hobby is lack of contacts/increased competition for limited resources. I'll count myself lucky if I'm able to catch a swarm, but chances are someone like myself will have to shell out the cash for a package and do the best they can.

Hopefully the hobby will evolve to deal with the increased interest soon.

 

Swarms are often available sooner and grow much better than packages.

Silly to buy bees at all IF you have swarms available for capture in your area.

Hell, I charge folks to come get them, so my new hives are making me money even before I get them home. :lpf:

AND, it's a blast catching them!




Don

 

Allow me to point out that while the original post never actually used the word "splitting", its quite clear that that was he was referring to.

Making more hives should really be a beekeeping basic its not that advanced or mysterious but many feel that way because they never try it.

You can't read Beesource for very long without discovering that Michael Palmer has posted volumes on techniques for increasing one's hive count by splitting.

 

xcugat,
You are timely, so many will not start to look for bees until too late. True last year, will be true next year. Making splits out of packages is a hard game to win. Splits out of a 2nd year package, if it is alive, is only a little easier when it is hanging on itself.

Libhart, could not have said it better.

I wish more local spring splits were available for the beginner. Even sales of one or two from locals would reduce the package need.

MP, I laughed.

 

Packages do much better than overwintered hives or splits. Although we sell, produce, and use both packages and splits I am convinced that the extra work and expense with the packages is outweighed by the "umph" they exhibit compared to all other forms of increase.

 

most of my increase this year came from overwintered nucs, although i got a few from splits and swarms.

luckily, overwintered losses are not high in my area.

now that i have gotten close to my 20 hive capacity, i won't overwinter nucs again, but rather rely on splits and swarms to fill in the gaps.

 

I think that there is a bit of a misconception among some northeners that southern beekeeping is a panacea. While they do get milder winters and much earlier springs that is offset by the mite challenges that result from longer seasons and quite often long hot summers with a dearth of nectar. I love the benefits of getting bees down south for the winter but I hesitate to ever move them there too early as I prefer to see the queens shut down up north first.

 

mite challenges

And maybe even more challenging are the small hive beetles.

 

Outcomes with a package are a crap shoot. A drone layer is a package quality issue. A package installed in a warm spell with flowers everywhere will probably do well. A package installed before 2 weeks of rain and cold is going to struggle for a long time, without drawn comb a really long time. Not my first choice but often the only choice. Try for a nuc, but count on a package to a least arrive.
A swarm here is so rare it makes the news, not counting on that.

 

Just upped my order for packages. went from 900 to 1200 packages. With the big honey shortage, the price of honey will go up again this year. The GOLD RUSH is on. Some have the time to try things and see. Well for me I'm not getting any younger. Would love to try some new things, but if you have something that works and works well why change.:digging: LOVE THIS ICON.

 

jim, very good point about the mites. lost one this fall from them, but will keep a watchful eye next year...:thumbsup:

 

It looks as though this thread may be a day late....on the Rossman website it appears that their packages are already spoken for until May. Either there is an issue with supply or the demand is greater than ever.
And then there are the BWeavers and their $130 packages.
It is absolutely amazing.

 

Reputable package dealers will replace drone layers. Most times package producers are also queen producers.
And there is absolutely no reason for a package to struggle, no matter the weather. When installing a package, the first thing one should do is feed it! You feed it until it has at least 10 frames of drawn comb. Personally, I feed my package installations, or splits, until they either quit taking it, or have drawn two deeps of comb. that way I know they're well established before I have to worry about winter.

If one does a walk away split, you make your increase, without even the cost of a queen. But even then, I feed feed feed until the hive is built up. I want to give them every chance possible to succeed, and not stress them when I don't have to.
Regards,
Steven

 

I just started keeping bees this spring. Bought a package and a nuc and then had the good fortune to catch 6 swarms and do a trap-out that left me with 9 colonies. Surely out of those I'll at least have a couple that make it through and I can replace losses with splits or more swarms. I'm done buying packages.

 

It's the a similiar situation to southerns who come up north in winter and are horrified it's 40 degrees out when us northerns are quite happy it's 40 something out in December because this isn't normal for us. The same is true of bees. Bees who are use to the Florida and Texas heat aren't equipped/don't understand northern winter and vice versa. Thanks to the forums I made the smart move to get local bees who are looking for food as we speak, not foraging just lazy and want they're top feeder filled.

 

local bees who are looking for food as we speak, not foraging just lazy and want they're top feeder filled.

This is only a good thing if there is something for them to forage on. Otherwise...it is wasted energy....more consumption of stores....and an increased chance of starvation before spring.

 

Andrew Dewey..No I do not personally know Mr. Palmer, but, if he is saying and doing as you wrote, good for him. Wish more would do that. We could all do more to help others.

cchoganjr

 

I guess I should have checked this thread this morning.....
IF you really NEED a package get your orders in soon but they are getting silly expensive

In my first post, I was referring to splitting pre existing hives for everyone that has them--even if you dont really need another hive it is really good insurance for to keep your hive total constant if something goes wrong. Michael they are raising bees north of the Carolinas? I thought everyone up your way just hibernated all winter. Oh and what is a search function I really need to have a complete new thread about how beekeeping is an extremely cheap hobby....
--I wasn't referring to you obviously in this post that would really be preaching to the choir leader, but other beekeepers need to consider increase a top priority not a secondary one as many do.
This is really for your second year and over beekeepers to keep as a mentality going forward. Treatments and techniques are all well and good but if you do not have bees you can not experiment with any thing. Also for those who want to save some cash you can really save alot by expanding with splits instead of forking over package cash

 

If more time was spent concerned with propagation at least through splits, many new and intermediate beekeepers would have more stock to play with treatment free, top bar hives etc, but instead people waste too much time and energy only on treatment methods and alternative beekeeping first. Making more hives should really be a beekeeping basic its not that advanced or mysterious but many feel that way because they never try it.

What a load of
Package beekeeping is all about economics, managing work load and filling in losses.
Supply and demand, thats the basics of business,
Would you not say the same thing about these small and intermediate beekeepers needing packages for for treatment free, and top bar hives ?
Package beekeeping is as very important tool for commercial beekeepers and the package industry has build around the commercial beekeeping industry.

 

Package beekeeping is all about economics, managing work load and filling in losses.
Supply and demand, thats the basics of business,
Would you not say the same thing about these small and intermediate beekeepers needing packages for for treatment free, and top bar hives ?
Package beekeeping is as very important tool for commercial beekeepers and the package industry has build around the commercial beekeeping industry.

Ian, have you read Vickery's book? He taught beekeeping for many years and was professor emeritus in entomology at McGill. He passed away in 2011.

He wintered nucleus colonies and wrote the bit below, probably in response to the border closure for package bees from the US.


*****************

Vickery, V.R., The Honey Bee, 1991, Particle Press

Nucleus Colonies

Starting with nucleus colonies is a relatively new practice in eastern Canada but the future for beekeepers who supply nucleus colonies looks bright. I produced nucleus colonies in Quebec from 1974 to 1977 to prove that they are a reasonable alternative to importing package bees. p. 89

Wintering Nucleus Colonies

Nucleus colonies can be wintered very well and can provide the entire answer to the dis appearing supply of “package bees”. Nucleus colonies will invariably build up more quickly and produce more honey than colonies started from “package bees”. Inside wintering of nucleus colonies is recommended for prairie beekeepers. (Gruszka, 1985)If the nucs are made up early enough (July) they can be wintered successfully in single brood chambers outside, even in the severe winters experienced in Saskatchewan. Nucs made up in August with two combs of brood can be built up, fed and wintered as four-frame nucs outside on the top of a multiple colony pack (fig.13.12). Two four-frame nucleus hives are set in the place of one single brood chamber hive. The two hives are slightly narrower than the full sized super and I routinely use a slab of one inch (2.5 cm) Styrofoam to fill in the space on the exposed side or sides. To date this method has worked very well (Vickery and Willis, 1985). p. 204

 

Ok Ian--dont get excited-but I think you are misreading my post completely the point is that the people who want to try alternative beekeeping methods would be better served and have alot more money in their pockets if they worked on standard beekeeping first, built up some numbers in stock and then experimented with other techniques that may result in failure but are important experimental learning experiences rather than blindly forking over money for packages.

I have no beef with the package producers they are only meeting a need for their biggest and most important customers--the commercial beekeeping industry. I purposely did not include them at all in this whole discussion--they are dealing with economies of a much bigger scale and have commitments to meet with pollinators etc. Just looking at the responses here other than Honey Householder and Michael Palmer I would argue that most of the people on this forum are not commercial beekeepers, or even side-liners, but rather hobbyists. As hobbyists it should be required knowledge to know how to make a few extra hives each year at least with walk away splits if nothing else

That being said, since you have brought up the commercial beekeeper/package producing relationship I will bite:
I would argue that the bees that have been met to meet the commercial demands of today--huge and fast population buildup for pollination, honey production and so on have resulted in a less resilient bee for all of us who occasionally have to by these same packages. Its nobody's fault per se but rather the whole industry model. The commercial producer would like his bees to live year after year--it would be hugely cheaper, but longevity and disease resistance and winter hardiness are not the key breeding characteristics that get pollination contracts filled and paid. If I remember correctly Honey Householder dont you sell your bees each year and start fresh each season--the commercial model is very different than the hobbyist one.

 

producers they are only meeting a need for their biggest and most important customers--the commercial beekeeping industry. I purposely did not include them at all in this whole discussion--they are dealing with economies of a much bigger scale and have commitments to meet with pollinators etc. Just looking at the responses here other than Honey Householder and Michael Palmer I would argue that most of the people on this forum are not commercial beekeepers, or even side-liners, but rather hobbyists. As hobbyists it should be required knowledge to know how to make a few extra hives each year at least with walk away splits if nothing else

pretty much every beekeeper uses splits and nucs in their operation. I think you are absolutely out to lunch on that fact. That is the very basic of beekeeping.
Packages come into the equation for other reasons, and because beekeepers use packages within their annual management strategy does not make that strategy wrong. A whole industry I built around that strategy

 

Winter losses = empty boxes. Empty boxes = swarm traps. Swarm traps = more bees. No packages. No splits.

That's my plan for now at least. Though if I have empty boxes after prime swarm season I might sacrifice some honey and do a split or two.

 

good plan. if you have enough hives, find 'cut down spit' on mike bush's site and try it out on one.

 

Yes but it seems that you are commercial if you have an Industry which as I have repeatedly said is not part of this discussion, and no I would not say that splits are basic in beekeeping. I help many newbees in my area who have no idea about splitting hives at all

 

okay, I must of mis read your opening comments,