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According to Peter Loring Boarst, numerous "survivor" hives that where found in remote areas failed quickly when moved into a commercial apiary. There appears to be more at play here than meets the eye.

On the other hand, we had a swarm land on the back porch in some old equipment many years ago. They where smaller and all black, and could winter in a very small cluster.

So my conclusion is there is no conclusion. Keep an open mind as to what any bee's potential is.

Crazy Roland
 
If the idea is to retain some of the characteristics of the current bees, why not approach the introduction of new genetics from the other side. First bring a number of your "nice" hives into the area but a short distance away and induce production of drones in those hives. Then cause some hives to be queenless, say by making walkaway splits. If the queens from those hives mate with your "nice" drones their offspring will be partly feral and partly "nice". Then you select for the characteristics you want to keep and split the hives with those characteristics again. This will be a time consuming effort. If you requeen with a mated queen from someplace else you are totally replacing the genetics of the hive and within a few weeks the feral genetics are gone. As usual I admit that I know only what I have read. I welcome and hope for comments from others.
Bill
 
>Keep an open mind as to what any bee's potential is.

agreed roland, and i do. the bee producer from whom i aquired these has done pretty well with them for several years now, and absolutely no treatments. time will tell as far as my experience with them.

that's a very interesting situation that you have there micha. the young folks that you are getting involved are fortunate to have you. hopefully you can end up with a more docile strain, that continues to be very productive.
 
Discussion starter · #24 ·
hpm,

I have not send them to get tested, but they do follow you more than 150 yards sometimes in great numbers!
I had to get on the truck one day, with full armor, windows open, drive a few miles and only then, I got rid of them girls.
I will test them soon.
 
mark, this bee raiser i mentioned had his eye on about a half dozen feral colonies in the woods near his home for years. assuming these colonies were not some that simply moved in to a feral dead out, and they had been self sustaining without treatment, would that not bode for good genetics? i do understand yours and roland's point about no guarantees.
 
Maybe, maybe not. I just don't think there is necassarily anything special about these bees. What happens to them when they are hived? How long do they live afterwards? Before I would extoll the virtues of these bees I would want to see them survive a cpl of years in hives. And other characteristics noted as well. There's more to breeding characteristcs than survival.

Question: How does your friend know if the bees in the trees survived the winters and didn't just get reoccupied every Spring? Also, a characteristic of bee trees which benefits their survivability is swarming. They will throw off swarms in the Spring, should they survive the Winter, and then they will also swarm later in the Summer and/or Fall. Which helps interrupt the Varroa life cycle.
 
i'm with ya mark, that's why i said assuming......

and the queens i got were put into failing hives, and the nucs i got were late in the season, so...

like i said, and so did you, time will tell.

my friend has had a pretty good track record with 'em, i am going to try and not mess that up.

i'm betting that it doesn't matter how good the genetics are if they are not managed properly, maybe the converse is true as well.
 
This is baloney.
Tell it to my treatment-free feral swarms which have survived not one year, but several. Add to that the fact that I keep catching those swarms year after year in the same place, cast from what I assume is the same tiny tree cavity somewhere out in the sticks around here.
 
In my opinion feralness is overrated. I don't know any other part of agriculture that uses or promotes the assumed beneficial aspects of an unmanaged population of livestock. Why is this so in beekeeping? Is it because of the predominance of persons who keep bees as pets?
I dont know if it's still run this way, but, a few things keep coming to mind after reading this thread a couple days ago, regarding family friends that had a small dairy operation when I was a child growing up. They promoted, and encouraged, a number of unmanaged stocks on the farm. There were cats running free in the barn, they were not house pets, and, were not really managed in any way, except occaisionally some milk set out for them during milking. For the rest, they just ran free, totally unmanaged. The purpose they served was simple, control of the mouse population. In the northeast corner of that farm, the beavers were encouraged to 'stay put' as well. They maintained a fairly complex network of small dams, which resulted in a rather large pond. Once in a while, the farmer would 'help' the beavers with a front end loader. Again, rationale was simple, that pond was the water source for irrigating a quarter section. If the beaver pond was dry, water had to be pumped from the river, a lift of 200 feet. When the pond was full, no water had to be pumped from the river. The beavers helped eliminate a significant cost. Added bonus, they were slowly clearing a large stand of poplars.

When chris and I started with our bees in the spring, we didn't know exactly where this would lead, and, it led to something we had no clue was on the horizon. After getting our first hive, we were introduced to an elderly gent just down the hill from us, he has a 14 acre holly orchard. We were asked if we wanted to locate bees in the orchard, because his friend that had bees there for years, had reached the age where he wasn't able to manage hives anymore. Both of them are in mid 80's. Near the end of the summer, we were asked about taking a much greater interest in the farm, and, now we are managing the holly harvest on his behalf. Our bees have a new purpose, and that is to pollinate the holly. Without a decent berry crop, the holly is difficult to sell in season, but with a good berry crop, it sells well. I guess you could say, we have become sharecroppers. The older gent that owns the farm is in his 80's, and, no longer physically capable of managing the harvest, so we've gone into an arrangement where we do that for him, on a percentage of yield basis.

So, why am I now interested in the feral population, the answer is simple. I need to make sure the holly is pollinated. We are not in the business of selling honey, and, dont really want to get into that business. We would like to harvest enough honey for our own use, and, that's about the extent of it. Today we have 2 hives in the holly, and, would like to expand that number a bit over the next year. This year, our bees were a cost center, they required feeding, and, we bought all the equipment etc. In the fall we purchased the stuff needed for mite treatments. Keep in mind, for us, this started as a hobby, and, we were not really worried about individual cost per hive. But, that's changed, and as so often happens, the hobby has morphed into part of a business.

Today, our business is taking a crop off of a small farm. 14 acres of holly trees, and a few acres of apples. The bees started as a hobby, with the intention of something to 'force' us to get out of the office for a few hours once in a while. Now they are a tool, intended to pollinate a crop, and our thought process around them has changed. Ideally, we can reach a point where the bees are no longer a cost center, but, something that looks after itself, with no monetary input of any kind. The idea of a stock that can deal with local issues, ie mites and climate, without help in the form of feeding and treatment, is suddenly very appealing. For our goals today, feral hives taking up residence in the fir trees on the property, is the 'holy grail', a totally unmanaged stock that requires no input from us, but pollinates the property. I dont think thats going to happen, so, we are now embarking down a plan to try get closer to the goal of bees that require no input. It may, or may not work, but, the only way to find out, is to try.

Reading your posts off and on, I'm left with the impression that you manage bees to produce a honey crop, and, it's a business. The bottom line is, the difference between $ input on a hive, and, the revenue from honey sales, with honey as the target crop. That is the traditional business model for bees. Our goals and objectives are different than yours. Our target crop is the holly for sales during the christmas season, and the bees are just a tool to maximize revenue from that crop. So, our approach to the bees is going to be different. On our 5 year plan moving forward, I want to reach the goal of 8 hives in the orchard, and get there without buying anything other than woodenware. Ideally, we can get there without pouring any $$ into the hives in the form of feed and/or treatments. I dont really care if the bees are gentle. In reality, the only thing I really care about, is that they live in that orchard, and, continue to do so.

So, we've read a lot about keeping bees here, and elsewhere. The knowledge base has ramped up from zero, and continues to ramp up every day. I've read a bunch about the process of selection for traits, etc, and, I've got a plan. The bees currently in the orchard came from packages this spring, and, they got treated for mites in the fall. We know of one location that has had a wild hive 20+ years that we've been able to confirm. Traps go out there in the spring, we want to try get 'whatever they have' that's allowed them to keep going over that time. That particular hive has thrown swarms for at least 18 of the last 20 years, this we have confirmed with current and former owners of the property. Assuming we get a swarm from that hive, it's going into the orchard, and, it's going to recieve nothing in terms of feed or treatments. The bees that are there now, will get no feed, and we will make the call on mite treatments next fall. The goal is, over a period of 3 years, reach a point where at least _some_ of the hives can go the full year with zero input, then propogate from those. At the end of the 5 year plan, I want 8 hives in the holly orchard, of which at least 5 are surviving the winter, with no input from us. Swarms from the survivors can re-populate the deadouts.

I know, long drawn out post, but, I think it shows why I'm interested in unmanaged stock, for agriculture. It's actually one of our goals, to get bees into the hives that dont require any management at all. Can I get there ? I dunno, but, that's part of the challenge now. Selecting bees on survival, and survival alone, is part of a longer term cost reduction strategy. But, to get there, we have to start with the first steps along the path, and from where I'm sitting right now, that means we need to be looking for feral bees that have been around for a while, to try seed that trait into the bees in the orchard. Am I on the right track ? Ask me in 2 years, and I'll have the answer to that question for you.
 
sounds like you and chris have really thought this through. i can appreciate your comments about the knowledge base and learning curve!

i think you've got a very workable plan there, and if i may, i'll offer a couple things that came to mind as i read your post.

eight healthy colonies would be capable of providing you with several thousand dollars of honey at the retail level. i realize that's not what you are interested in. if you would rather not spend the time or effort, another beek might be willing to 'manage' these hives, and you could share the harvest.

i think you should be able to get the increase you are looking this year by catching swarms and making splits. if you end up with exceptional stock, you could also generate income by selling nucs, (again, by cost sharing with someone else if you don't want to spend time on it).

i've been using these past weeks during the off season to read randy oliver's web site. ton's of solid info there regarding everything partaining to bee management, including the use of resistant stock and mite control. one of the many take home lessons i got so far, is that it only takes one weak hive to succumb to disease/pests, which eventually gets robbed out by the healthy bees, resulting in the spread the problem to the healthy ones.

for me this will mean removing any 'sick' or otherwise distressed hives to an off yard as a management strategy. not doing this seems to me to be the only drawback of a totally 'hands off' approach.

i have bees that were derived from local feral stock, they have been awesome so far. my plan is to utilize ipm concepts and avoid treatments and feeding.

maybe a local 4h club or boy scout troop or other such resource could provide helpers to take care of the bee chores in exchange for the merit badge and a little honey?
 
grozzie2, why hasn't your plan worked without your intervention? I think it is a lot to ask for the bees to multiply on their own for a specific crop otherwise who in their right mind would pay someone to pollinate their crop. On a small scale it might work because there would be other nectar available but on a large scale I can't see it working. The thing is on a small scale nature is probably already doing what you want to accomplish.
 
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