Beesource Beekeeping Forums banner

1 - 10 of 10 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,010 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
I am looking for a beekeeper or two located in the Northeast who would be interested in working on a selection project . My Karnica strain of Carniolans does very well in our Ohio winters, but I know there are much tougher conditions farther North. I would like to find a sideline beekeeper who raises their own queens and is non-migratory. For this beekeeper, I would supply instrumentally inseminated Karnica breeders (at no cost) to produce open mated queens to test/evaluate through the winter. The following spring, I would like 5-10 daughters (to use for drones) that performed well through the winter. My goal is to further improve winter hardiness in the strain. I think it would be best if you were able to evaluate 50-100 daughters which is why I am thinking a sideline operation may be best. If this sounds interesting, please email me directly or, I welcome any comments or suggestions.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
578 Posts
I see you will be visiting us in March to run "Queen Rearing and Breeding Workshops" on the 8th in Lethbridge and 10th in Edmonton, in conjunction with Dr. Nasr. We're looking forward to that.

(For any who wish details, call Samantha at 780-415-2309 or registration at 1-800-387-6030)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
222 Posts
I am looking for a beekeeper or two located in the Northeast who would be interested in working on a selection project .
Are you interested in going to Canada with your trials?

Do they have to be wintered outdoors or is indoors an option?

Do you have to have the 50 - 100 daughter queens evaluated in the same location by the same beekeeper, or will you allow a bit of outsourcing to friends and beekeeping associates?

Jonathan Hofer
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,010 Posts
Discussion Starter #4
Allen,

Yes, I am very much looking forward to my trip up North!

Jonathan,

To be honest, Canada would be a much more rigorous trial, but logistically a bit more difficult with import regulations. My hope is to have one or two beekeepers who can evaluate the larger numbers within their own operation to reduce the number of variables.

Thanks,
Joe
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
222 Posts
If this sounds interesting, please email me directly or, I welcome any comments or suggestions.
To be honest, Canada would be a much more rigorous trial, but logistically a bit more difficult with import regulations.
Hello Mr. Latshaw,

I agree with the rigorous trial part.


With all due respect to your plan, I am a bit confused and I don't quite follow what you intend to do.

Are you trying to get northern genetics into your gene pool?

It almost seems as if this is your goal, because the daughters from your II Queens would be open mating with northern drones, and then if you get the selected daughters back and raise queens from them, the offspring would have genetic influence from the northern drones.
There is a problem, in that there is no control over the drones. Are they going to be drones from hives that made it through the winter indoors or outdoors, drones from local queens, or are they going to be drones from package or Australian queens in the neighbor’s yard. If you cannot guarantee that the drones are going to be from the hives that made it through the winter successfully, then you might be bringing back negative traits.

OR, are you just trying to select for winter hardy traits?

In that case, the daughters from your II Queens would still be mating with a local drone population that is in many areas, not from a consistent source. As such, the above problems would still manifest themselves.
Unless of course, you don’t see the above as problems.

Nonetheless, if you are looking for winter hardy genetics, there is always the option of collecting the semen from drones originating in winter hardy hives, and then inseminating breeder queens. Problem with collecting “northern semen” is if you want to maintain a purely Karnica line.

The other options and the one that I think would work best in both maintaining purity of your line, and also offering winter hardy selection, would be for you yourself actually raising and open mating / inseminating the 50 - 100 queens, and then sending them out to wherever you choose to evaluate them. That person could keep them through the summer, and one winter, and evaluate them in the spring, providing that the queens are sent in time. After the spring evaluation, the best queens could be sent back to you, for further procreation and they would still be your own queens and from your own genetics.

For our own operation, I believe that a queen introduced after the end of June, cannot be authentically evaluated that fall, nor in the spring for wintering capabilities. In my opinion, queens introduced after the beginning of July are simply put into the hives too late to get through a honey flow and prepare for winter with their own offspring. Therefore, the evaluation would lack validity since the evaluation would come from the work of bees that are not offspring of the queen you are trying to evaluate.

Also, if I were in your shoes, and trying to select for wintering capabilities, I would ensure that I’m sending my queens out to reputable beekeepers, who know what they are doing, and who’s operating procedures would enable your queens to receive the best evaluation possible. Ensuring an authentic evaluation can be achieved by limiting all other negative influences (disease, parasites, etc.) that would otherwise cause bee mortality during the winter and as such, skew the results of the evaluation.

There are more factors than just surviving the winter that would need to be evaluated, including feed requirements both with what is fed in the fall, and what is left in the spring, also, both spring and fall hive strengths, and spring brood build up. In my opinion, these are all factors that need to be considered under the broad heading of wintering capability. Due to the work involved in evaluating 50 – 100 hives, you might want to provide some form of additional incentive for the person that’s going to be doing it.

Well, you welcomed comments and suggestions, and there she is, :D

JH
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,010 Posts
Discussion Starter #7
JH,

Very well said and thank you for all of your input!

As far as genetic "contamination" if you will, the drones produced by the naturally mated queens are still genetically pure to the strain. In using naturally mated queens I realize I am only controlling half the genetics, but that is okay for my purpose.

My Karnica line does very well in my area, but I am always looking to challenge them a little more. You mentioned beekeeper skill, mites, disease, etc. To me, that is the real world. In asking for someone to raise and monitor 50-100 daughters, they have the numbers to really look at and see how the stock looks.

If time and resources allowed, I would really like to send someone 50-100 inseminated queens to evaluate, but that is an awfully be investment/risk for me to take.

As far as an incentive is involved. I hope no one thinks I am taking advantage of them. I hope to be very clear in that I am offering some very good stock in exchange for some tough conditions. I look at it as a beneficial project for those involved as I am just asking them to raises daughter queens and manage them as they normally would.

I hope this helps and thanks for the great comments! When I write things, I may think of them one way, but when someone reads them, they may be interpreted in an entirely different way.:)

Joe
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
222 Posts
Alright, I get it now. You only plan to use the drones from the evaluated queens, and are not planning on raising daughters from them. That would mean your Karnica line stays pure. I got it! :D


Oh I would be really interested in doing some evaluation like that for you, but I don't have the hive numbers you need plus there's the problem of getting the queen across the border.

Hope you find someone to do it for you,

JH
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,010 Posts
Discussion Starter #9
WOW! Thanks everyone for the interest and willingness to help! As I wrote I am really looking for some tough conditions, some that are tougher than mine. I just typed locations into weather.com to get an idea of average winter conditions and from the people who sent me an email or PM and found three that are colder than around here. I think Mike Palmer has perhaps the toughest conditions…

Thanks again to everyone!
Joe
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
831 Posts
Hello Joe!

I would love to be involved in your project but my climate is probably very similar to yours. I only have 50 hives right now. I sent you an email on Saturday asking about your breeder queens. There seems to be a change in SE PA in terms of the fall flow or should I say lack there of. In order to keep my bees alive I need to feed from August until the hives are heavy. Last year I took no honey and I fed all yards but one. The yards that were fed had above 80 percent survival rate and the one I did not feed had 11 of 13 hives starve. Your Karnica line has peaked my interest because it has become quite obvious to me that bees in my area must depend on the Spring flow for winter survival. I'm very interested in trying out your line in my area to see how they respond in these conditions.
 
1 - 10 of 10 Posts
Top