[WLC]

Have there been any pesticide related bee kills in the U.K. ?

Neonics and CCD is yet another strawman argument. Environmental contamination by neonics is the issue.

It's contaminating the soil and the water. And, by the way, it can kill pollinators, both managed and native, along the way.

So, did you have an actual point to make?

 

[Oldtimer]

Well, I think you just made it for me.

 

[WLC]

Health Canada is concerned that neonicotinoids have contaminated the soil and water where they're being used.

I, for one, don't find issues related to environmental toxicology to be trivial matters.

Suppose they do find neonicotinoid environmental contamination in Canada?

Do you know what the half life can be in certain soil types? Decades.

 

[Oldtimer]

Emphasis Suppose.

So once pushed, your fall back position is that you do not find environmental toxicology to be a trivial matter, and that pesticides in general can kill pollinators.

As there is unlikely to be anyone else here who would disagree with that, all of a sudden we seem to all be on the same page LOL.

So what point all the arguing LOL

 

[WLC]

Since you brought up the U.K. ...

Goulson (2013) reports that an EPA study found that Clothidinin showed negligible dissipation (after 25 months) in Silty clay loam in Saskatchewan, Canada.

In plain English, that means that it doesn't have a measurable half life.

All the clothidinin that you put into the soil stays there.

So, after ten years, you'll have ten years of clothiadinin in the soil.

That's the scale of the environmental contamination I'm referring to.

It's not funny.

 

[Oldtimer]

I'll support getting rid of pesticides with a very long residual period. The main reason they got rid of DDT.

But you've been arguing about neonicitinoids generally. Some of them have a very short half life. Which would make those ones pretty desirable.

 

[WLC]

Maybe, just maybe, it's time to change away from systemics.

When Pioneer willingly offers to supply farmers with uncoated seeds, without putting up a fight, you have to wonder what do the folks at Health Canada and Pioneer know that we don't?

Until the environmental toxicology reports surface, we're still in the dark.

However, I might start poking around to see just how much silty clay loam there might be in Canada.

 

[WLC]

At a recent conference in Las Vegas, I got the whole table talking about bees, etc. .

It's a real ice breaker.

 

[Oldtimer]

Maybe, just maybe, it's time to change away from systemics.

Emphasis maybe. As it's your own words and argument.

When Pioneer willingly offers to supply farmers with uncoated seeds, without putting up a fight, you have to wonder what do the folks at Health Canada and Pioneer know that we don't?

You are a big fan of the financial incentive they had to offer to use tank loads of malathion instead then?

 

[WLC]

That's another strawman argument. That they're going to replace neonics with THE BOGEYMAN. Booo!

 

[beekuk]

Have there been any pesticide related bee kills in the U.K. ?

Not with regards to neonicotinoid seed dressings that i am aware of, or any of the other commercial beekeepers i know, including the two biggest in the UK, most in fact were against the ban, especially as it will more than likely (it will) lead to a return to the use of more foliar sprays (like Hostathion) which have caused large bee kills in the past.

All myself and other commercial beekeepers i know of here had problems with is the colonies building up very fast and strong on OSR (Canola) and going into swarming mode, as normal, and no long term effects or bad wintering ect.

 

[Oldtimer]

That's another strawman argument. That they're going to replace neonics with THE BOGEYMAN. Booo!

Strawman. LOL.

Saying that them having to offer financial incentives to farmers to use tank loads of malathion if they use uncoated seeds is a strawman argument, says rather a lot about your overall understanding / view.

You are on the get rid of neonics never mind the consequences bandwagon.

 

[squarepeg]

Here in this thread is the prime example when simply not replying is very appropriate.

kinda like groundhog day with bill murray?

 

[jim lyon]

At a recent conference in Las Vegas, I got the whole table talking about bees, etc. .

It's a real ice breaker.

Am I the only one having difficulty conjuring up a mental image of this?

 

[Rader Sidetrack]

Perhaps the ... performers ... were wearing Bee-strings! :lpf:

 

[WLC]

Am I the only one having difficulty conjuring up a mental image of this?

One of the attendee's has a daughter that works at the Harvard School of Public Health and knows Alex Lu.

That's how part of the conversation got going. Remember Dr. Lu, the guy that Randy can't stand?

 

[gmcharlie]

I can tell you exactly what the guys at Pioneer will tell you, "if you want to go back to costly spraying, we will sell you anything you want." I happen to know a few of them

Honey drunk, your missing the point, sure we cry when someone looses 100 hives. but get over it. besides being a partial issue of the beek for keeping all his stuff in one spot and not knowing whats going on, how and why is it worse than a guy with 2 losing both?? the answer is .... its not. but every year thousands of hives die, and thousands more split. in Canada case (and pretty much everywhere) its not a problem Losses are made up. it happens in EVERY life form... every day for millons of years.

And to the 70% contain Neonics. It a foolish statement dreamed up by Lawyers and guys from NYC...... every one of those hives also contained honey, and wax, and nails...hardly proof of causation.
What any real problem solver will tell you is we need samples from the living hives as well as the deads. The key is whats the DIFFERENCE between good and bad? thats how you solve problems. I have several awards and plaques on the wall from problem solving..... its how I see past the garbage thats spewed. I live in it... I would bet 100% of my hives have been exposed.
I also have heard that 90% of the dollar bills contain trace amounts of cocaine.... but its not the issue.
We have to get past the finger pointing on Neonics. its a total red hearing........ I lose a Dang lot of hives to mites.... lets get teh EU to ban them....

 

[WLC]

One of the consequences of beekeeping is that Honeybees are also an indicator species. If there's a contamination problem, your bees will most likely either test positive or become affected.

I don't think that it's acceptable to make light of a potential environmental catastrophe in someone else's country.

We don't know how bad it is yet. Unfortunately, one of the consequences could be that you can't keep bees near these contaminated areas for a very long period of time.

Health Canada is saying that the current practice is unsustainable. While I don't know exactly why they made that statement, I've never heard that kind of language from a government agency anywhere.

It's definitely a very serious situation.

Even Canada's National Farmers Union wants the neonics pulled:

http://www.ipolitics.ca/2013/12/18/national-farmers-union-joins-fight-to-protect-bees/

 

[honeydrunkapiaries]

I think asking for a ban unfortunately has put the onus on the beekeepers to come up with proof. We ALL know how questionable bee related studies can be, half these forums are filled with it. Heres the facts, Italy banned them, populations are going up. Cause and effect. We may not understand why, and frankly I dont think we have to... its like asking why the universe was created, no one knows, probably never will, lots of theories about it, doesn't change the fact its here.

As to the 90% (you did read that right?) they did come out and take lots of samples.

Perhaps neonics just give mites spidey senses

 

[WLC]

Don't fall for the same old strawman argument that you have to prove cause and effect. You don't.

You just have to prove translocation in the case of a pesticide bee kill.

If a pesticide gets into a hive, it's proof of environmental contamination.

That's what I've learned from the Italian studies.

Frankly, an agency veterinarian made the determination in Italy that lead to the neonic coated maize seed ban.

Bans can happen by agency determination, or even by provincial authority in Canada.