>>Mike:
This thread is concluded by the originator, but I think it's time to respond to your constant needling of anything I have say. As you know, I take no pleasure in disagreements in opinion and generally abstain. But you persist. I have no animosity toward you or your opinions - everyone is entitled to their own. Actually, am glad to see you back on the job as the voice of the northern perspective.
I'm not needling you Walt. I'm disagreeing with you. I'll not say anything about your methods when it comes to keeping bees in Tennessee or that kind of climate. When it comes to beekeeping in a northerly location like Vermont, or Elmira NY, I will. From your posts., what you know about northern beekeeping is hearsay, ie. needing to know if foundation chewing is a regional difference. OK fine. I don't know about the timing in Tenn. But I do in NY and VT.
>Concessions first:
Re periodic reversal:
Left out some pertinent info on the timing. That approach is normally done when the colony has two full boxes of bees, brood, and stores. That would normally occur in the swarm prep period, and would only be done 2 or 3 times. Certainly didn't mean to start now.
Unfortunately, from your post, it seemed to me as if you were advising to reverse now if the colony had expanded into 2 boxes or had some honey down below. Walt, our bees are just coming out of winter here. The temps are still in the teens and single digits at night. I have bees that are in 3 boxes...many of them are this year. I would never reverse them this early. That's my main objection. And second objection is the 2-3 times reversing. You don't know northern flows.
Swarm prevention is accomplished by adquate overhead nectar storage. We both agree. Where we differ is I don't think there is a need for overhead nectar storage space until there is adequate nectar available. Our bees are now in the top box. Strong colonies have 1.5-3 boxes of bees. Even the strongest won't start cells on the tree blooms. A very few will start just before Dandelion, but most need a nectar flow that is much greater than colony needs. Here that most often comes from Dandelion, but rarely a bit sooner. So, keeping that timing in mind, I super just before that nectar. Gives the bees a place for overhead storage. Walt, our bees are in the top box. No overhead honey dome. Just what should I CB? The top of the broodnest. CB brood?
Early supering relieves the pressure for needed nectar storage overhead. As you said in December, it isn't permanent. That super (2 mediums actually in my case) will become filled with nectar, and create that dome you speak of, or cavity limit that I mention. That's when I reverse. By reversal ON the Dandelion bloom, you are again creating space overhead. More supers are added at this time. So, lots of empty comb space above the active cluster by reversian and nectar storage by managing supers correctly.
Now, why not just reverse early. Because the cluster moves up into empty combs, queen establishes broodnest there. When nectar comes in they are right back to the same place...cluster in top, incoming nectar, reach cavity limit...start swarm preps. Early reversal proponents advise multiple reversals about 10 days apart. I'm sure. The first was performed too early in the season and they don't understand the reason for reversing and it's relation to nectar flows.
>>Re use of F wax for other purposes:
Have only seen a couple cases of that in 20 years. Very rare. You imply that it's automatic. Is it really?? Locally, our bees store a reserve of wax during the active season for use during late winter period when they don't have wax-making capability. Their wax reserve is stored as burr or bridging in the brood nest area. It's a reserve that hasn't been fully treated in my published stuff.
If your bees automatically chew up F wax in the winter/spring season, that may be a real regional difference that we need to know.
It is here. If you add foundation before there's a good flow, the bees will chew the wax off the wires. We just don't have a strong flow until mid-Dandelion bloom. Then it's safe to add foundation.
>>My post was oriented to first things first. Get the colony up to strength before worrying about supering. Raising honey from below to overhead was intended to be a stopgap measure to avoid starvation. That might delay or obviate the need to feed.
Yes, that is the main goal. Reversing up that honey isn't the correct thing to do in the middle of March. Leave the bees alone at that time of the year in the North. If they need feeding, then feed. Many days now they are still in a winter cluster. Reversing the cluster to the bottom of the hive in those conditions is working against the bees wishes and nature to be in the top box at this time of year. See Walt, I don't believe in the swarm prep theory that says bees start swarm preps on the tree bloom. At least not here. Bees react to stimulae. We don't have a honey dome here, as you call it. So, I'll call it cavity limit. That cavity limit can be reached in any size hive at any time of the year that there is a flow on. If the broodnest is too small, or there aren't enough supers on that limit is reached. Yes, when there is nowhere else to put nectar, it goes in the broodnest. That's the trigger for swarming. Have space above for nectar storage...supering, CBing, reversing...and swarming is greatly reduced or delayed. Reversing here before that nectar flow is a waste of time and too invasive to the bees.
>>Rebuttal:
"Way too early for reversal" I can undestand that the consequences of separating the brood nest at this tme in the season in NY would be problematic. In the circumstances cited, that is, brood and bees in the top box, Where is the problem? " Believe me" sounds more like an unfounded opinion than a reason. Give us a reason applicable to the situation. You say that reversal of an empty and adding a super of drawn comb are similar in effect. So, while you're at it, explain why one is better than the other. Don't spare the details. We're all learning from this and I'm a dumb southerner.
" Believe me" sounds more like an unfounded opinion than a reason." Walt, your pov is totally full of unfounded opinion. You even say that all this new knowledge you have is unsupported by science. Is that not unfounded opinion? I'm trying my best to explain my methods. You want me to explain everything and "spare no details," yet most of your explanations are opinions.
I've been asked to add to BS, POV. My POV is contained in my posts in these pages. I don't mind questions and I don't mind challenges. Go ahead and question my methods. We all learn that way. I promise I won't answer your questions with more questions.
>>Checkerboarding swarm prevention reliabity:
On another thread you said we all have swarming "no matter what they do or say." Here, you call it "ostritch beekeeping." I tire of holding back in the interest of avoiding a protracted flap where there are no winners. For the record, I have had 2 swarms in ten years. In both cases, didn't follow my own recommendations. Try to let this penetrate. CB can be 100% effective when the regimen is followed. Have several years of 100% with 20 test colonies. Granted, that is a limited sample compared to your 700, and somewhere in the 700 are likely units that will not respond like most.
Yes, and if some in 700 then some in 20. All colonies act and react differently. None are the same. So, performing one manipulation on many colonies and walking away is what I call ostrich. Even after colony swarm prevention measures are taken, the colonies have to be checked periodically.
>>If you are able to spot those that need swarm control where swarm prevention failed, you must be checking for swarm cells. I gave that up in the first year of CB. Fractured too many supersedure cells. I can tell when CB is working from the top. Increasing overhead storage of nectar is all I need to see. Would that, or could that, be used in your operation?
I don't care if I fracture supercedure cells. There are always some more up inside the broodnest. I see colonies swarm that are filling supers well. Couldn't tell that from the top. I've seen colonies swarm when their supers are empty. Can't tell that from the top. I'm a more pro-active beekeeper. I like to look at my bees from the bottom up, not the top down.
>>If I can stop swarming in this area of excellent conditions, anybody, anywhere, can.
Truly, but maybe not by your methods everywhere. One size does not fit all.