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When should I worry if a split failed?

12K views 27 replies 16 participants last post by  Millenia 
#1 ·
Hi all. I tried my first split recently, and I believe I did everything according to plans. It is now nearly three weeks later and I see no eggs, and because it is a really big hive I can't seem to find anything that looks like a young queen. The bees are agressive when I check the hive, so I am hoping that means there is a queen in there somewhere. When should I consider requeening (I have plenty of eggs in other hives I could put in to to force an emergency queen, or I could buy one. I even have a weak hive I could merge with this if need be, just to get a new queen in there. But if I introduce a new queen and there is a queen already in there on the verge of laying, does that risk losing a swarm? Timing is everything it seems, but I don't quite know what the timing should look like at this stage.
 
#2 ·
When I do a split I write the date on the top. I don't go in for 30 days. Usually have eggs at this time. Sometimes small larva so the queen started laying around day 26 or 27. Once it took 34 days.

At 40 days with no eggs I combine them with something else and start over.
 
#5 ·
Queen hatches in 16 days +- a couple of days. Then a few days to firm up her wings etc., then a few days for mating flights. Weather can delay that.

Total you're looking at 16 days to make a new queen plus another 11 or so for her to start laying. 27 days total. Could be another week or so before you see eggs.

I agree with the previous poster, you could add a frame of eggs to see what they do with it. I still think it may be a little too early to see eggs.
 
#6 ·
You should never worry, I tried it and it doesn't work.:D
Timing is everything and the more you experiment the better you get at timing. I wait 60 days before I give up on nature. If it doesn't work I dump the hive. Try again next year.
 
#8 · (Edited)
I wait 60 days before I give up on nature. If it doesn't work I dump the hive. Try again next year.
I wouldn't wait that long, as it seems to me this would encourage a drone laying hive.

As Rader pointed out Bee math works. If the egg being laid counts as day one, I go 41 days, not one more than that, and it seems to work well.

Do keep in mind that if you did a walk away type split, that is really going to count as day 3-5. Splits that are done with a frame of brood usually start up with the right aged larva within 24 hours if it is present on the frame.

I have noticed though with three rounds of queen making this year, if you raise multiple queens, it seems they all tend to start laying at the same time, and those that don't, usually don't start up after.

I like this bee clubs queen calendar (though I check for laying sooner than they list it ~28days): http://www.thebeeyard.org/queen-rearing-calendar/


The bees are agressive when I check the hive, so I am hoping that means there is a queen in there somewhere. When should I consider requeening
since you have plenty of other hives you can always recombine and bolster another hive. If you really want that split, and you are the nervous type, toss another frame with eggs in your hive. Check it in 5 days to see if you have capped queen cells, AND to see if you have eggs. If you have eggs, cull the QCs. If you don't, check again in 5 days. If no eggs, let the new queens emerge. If eggs, cull the QCs.

No reason to buy a queen if you have plenty of hives, unless you really want that split going now. even so you would have to be sure there wasn't a queen in there that could kill your bought queen.
 
#12 ·
but if they mated poorly, he would still see eggs if he checked. So he would never know if there was an issue with this hive, or if they superceeded during that 2 month period:scratch:.

My point is, waiting two months serves no specific purpose, except encouraging a drone laying hive. It is an arbitrary time frame when dealing with bees. Bee math is a much more sound approach.
 
#20 · (Edited)
When I make splits, usually I have ripe, cultured queen cells to provide them. This speeds up the process and increases the chance of success. Sometimes I can tell if everything is going as planned, or not. If it is, all is good, if not, depending on the issues, remedies can be implemented.

No matter if everything is going well, or not, providing a donated frame/comb of mostly eggs, weekly, to the initially queenless portion of the split, will certainly help to ensure success, and doesn't cost the donor hive, much. If you make sure you shake the bees off, before transferring it, you reduce the chance of unwanted queen interactions.

Sometimes the bees from smaller splits, simply abscond once they have a queen capable of flying. For those, I simply return those combs to hives that can use them, or just use those combs (now without bees) as an additional super on a going colony. And, if it's just a nuc that has developed laying worker problems, shake those bees out (letting them beg their way into other colonies), freeze the combs with unwanted drone brood (overnight), then thaw them and use those combs, as above.
 
#25 ·
The way I see it, the bees in the split are going to die after a certain number of days whether you split them or not. So when a split fails, all it means is that you dont have a queen to hatch new bees for the hive. Why bother trying to save it, it isn't cruel to leave them on there own to die. They will haul in honey in the meantime and die when they get old. When the numbers get small just combine them, and the outcome overall is the same as if you tried to intervene.

Anyway, it's too early to have a queen, after 35-40 days or so is when you should worry.
 
#28 ·
I made two splits this spring. The first split I made into a nuc. A week or so later, I had so many queen cells, I put a frame of them into a new hive and added more bees from my parent hive. Three weeks later, I still saw no brood or eggs and thought my splits had failed. One week later, my nuc had eggs and brood. One week after that my new hive had eggs and brood. That means 5 weeks. I did add a frame or two of brood here and there and they never built any more queen cells so I should have had more confidence, but I assumed the worst.
 
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