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What are the limits to growth? Expanding apiary.

34K views 97 replies 38 participants last post by  mbear 
#1 ·
Hi,

I'm looking for some advice from anyone who has ramped up the size of their apiary from a dozen or so to a couple hundred.

I'm hoping to grow from my few hives to 250ish within a year or two. I'm grafting queens and planning to feed them back whatever honey they have left from the winter and also supplement with sugar throughout the warm months. I'm in the Southern Tier of New York. I know that they will be drawing a lot of comb and that will be taxing on them.

Has anyone gone through something like this before or know of any good resources or articles? I know there are a lot of variables, but any guidance would be appreciated.

Advice?

Thanks,
Mike
 
#2 ·
"supplement with sugar throughout the warm months."?

I think you have need for more years of experience before expanding too far too quickly.

I understand your great hopes and expectations. We all start out some time from where we are. "the greatest threat to the world's bees [is] still the incompetence of their keepers." Hannah Nordhaus on Langstroth's beehive in her book "The Beekeepers Lament". Which would be a good book for you to read if you would like to better understand "What are the limits of growth?"

Best wishes. Don't let my comments discourage you. As if that is all it would take.
 
#3 ·
I agree with, Sqkcrk.
In my experience what I thought would take 2 years has taken me 4 years. Set some goals and see if you have any success in reaching them. I often found that I didn't reach my desired colony numbers within my given time frame but what I saw instead was increase in productivity and then an increase in overall colony numbers as I leaned how to mange more colonies over time. Beekeeping in my opinion comes from patience and hard work there is really no easy way around it.
 
#4 ·
Regarding the sugar, I'm supposing that all that comb is going to take a lot of energy. I plan to feed in spring to give them a little better access to resources for all the building they'll be doing. I don't plan on feeding through the winter or making that a routine part of my management, it's just for the expansion.

Thanks for your feedback. I'm asking these questions because I'm trying to gauge what is realistic and act from there.
 
#9 ·
Unless you experience a really crappy summer, bees won't take sugar then and don't need it then.

Not being critical, but the statement revealed a lack of understanding perhaps from a lack of experience or understanding. Or maybe you didn't really mean what you wrote.
 
#6 ·
How long have you been keeping bees? How many hives did you start with? How many do you have now?

This will be my third year with bees. Started out with two then kept getting calls for swarms, have 21 now minus the 4 that died this winter. Not sure what will happen this summer, I have equipment to raise some queens and winter 30 nucs in the Mike Palmer divided nuc set-up. I'm reaching my limit without getting some extra help from the missus or the oldest kid (10). I have a full time job, a big garden, and like to do some mountain biking and have some family time too.
 
#7 ·
This coming year will be my third. My first year was a year of terrific mistakes, but this past year I worked with an older beekeeper who keeps around eighty. So I definitely gained a lot from my year with him. I went into winter with 7 hives. I'll be reducing winter's survivors to small cell before I start splitting them. I'm also going with something of a mini-nuc set-up. However many nucs I wind up with, my current plan is to overwinter them on top one another if they are small. I have a part time job and no kids. I'd like to make bees my full time thing before something like a family comes along.
 
#12 ·
This is my third summer keeping bees on my own. I bought 2 packages in 2012' and entered winter with 10 colonies, after getting 2 hives given to me by my wife's grand father. Last spring I purchased 40 nucs, and entered winter with 48 regular colonies, and 20 supers of split box nucs.

For me their are several limitations to expansion rate. 1. Money. With enough capital, you can do anything, but few of us have that privilege. I estimate $300/hive for capital, not including bees probably a bit low still. (Buildings, trucks, hive equipment, extracting equipment,etc) 2. Drawn comb, everything is more difficult without drawn comb. 1/2 the honey crop, twice the swarming, twice the beekeeper manipulation labour. 3. Beekeeper skill and winter survival.

These are the first things that come to my mind as I expand, and plan for farther expansion.
Luke
 
#45 ·
For me their are several limitations to expansion rate. 1. Money. With enough capital, you can do anything, but few of us have that privilege. I estimate $300/hive for capital, not including bees probably a bit low still. (Buildings, trucks, hive equipment, extracting equipment,etc) 2. Drawn comb, everything is more difficult without drawn comb. 1/2 the honey crop, twice the swarming, twice the beekeeper manipulation labour. 3. Beekeeper skill and winter survival.

These are the first things that come to my mind as I expand, and plan for farther expansion.
Luke
I would add number 4. Father time to this list, and then probably put number three to number 1, but let's just say my new list is in no particular order:D mperry, whats the rush? If you start slow (take the idea of doubling your hive count each year, it is one I have done successfully each year), you will soon know the/your limitations and the right number of hives for you and your business.
 
#15 ·
I have been keeping bees for about 10 years. I set out with a goal to be able to make a living from keeping bees 4 years ago. I knew how much income I would need to be able to sustain my current standard of living. At the time I started in 09 I had around 30 colonies and I would overwinter a couple dozen nucs as well. In 2010 I stopped using treatments for mites ( didn't plan on this when I started ) as expected I had HUGE losses. Since then I built up to manage 150 colonies for honey production and last year I made up 165 nucs, I also built up a mating yard to 176 mating nucs. Its been slow going but what I see today is really fascinating! Bees that have come from my own apiary, stocks that I'm maintaining and that are theriving within my local.
 
#19 · (Edited)
Small cell and natural comb are not necessarily the same thing. But, since I do some of both, my process to reduce larger cells in the natural comb hives, is to cut out sections of larger cells, use those combs with larger cells for honey supers only, or to harvest the beeswax from undesirable combs and let the bees do it again (hoping they do it over to my satisfaction - often they do). Or, better yet, I can add a little extra space for the drone comb, place it in the center of the brood nest, of genetically desirable hives, for raising drones to mate with my queens.

Using PF120 and PF125 Mann Lake plastic frames for its small cell size, seems to work best, for me, to quickly obtain a preponderance of nearly perfect small cell combs, almost every time. They do it best when the new frames are placed between combs of brood in the brood nest and primed with a little bit of extra beeswax coated on the rims of the cell wall bases. And recently I've taken the time to trim nearly all of my brood frames down to 1-1/4" width, so I can now fit nine in an eight-frame super or eleven in a ten-frame super.

Of course I only use small cell and/or natural comb because initially it was a little bit outside of "normal" beekeeping practices; and not because I expected it to provide me any overt protections from parasites. I did and do believe that foundationless combs help the hives health by not introducing possibly tainted wax where it could contact (and possibly affect) the bees and their young, right there, in their homes.

As far as expanding an operation: I feel that you should try. Only by trying, can you learn for yourself what to do and what not to do, so you can succeed in your objectives.

DaveCushman's website has several plans concerning how to expand an apiary. Several other websites also describe creating splits and growing an apiary. I'm sure there are books that also describe those types of manipulations. Here's another link at DaveCushman's site which may also be of interest.
 
#20 · (Edited)
You have a handful of hives right now, and you plan on expanding to 250 within a couple of years? You said you have only a part time job right now. I hope you realize that you will be spending at least $25,000.00 on basic equipment to build up to that level. That is only a fraction of the investment needed at the level you are talking about.

For your first year or two don't expect to get much of a return on your investment. If you have money set aside for the venture, that's great.
But I would also advise to take it a little slower and learn the ropes first before you dive into the deep water.

Don't mean to be negative, just suggesting that a bit more thought be put into this before you make the leap.
 
#31 ·
Don't mean to be negative, just suggesting that a bit more thought be put into this before you make the leap.
Mike, I was laying in bed last night thinking about this and if he is serious it seems to me he would actually need at least $250,000.00 to get into a fulltime business. $60,000.00 for a good and proper truck, $30,000.00 for a skidsteer, $8,000.00 for skidsteer trailer, $100,000.00 for bees and equipment, and $52,000.00 for other misc. things.

I would hate to take the time to look back through all the money I spent these last 30 plus years.
 
#21 ·
Honestly, I would say a lot depends on where you put your bees and how big and good of an area it is. You haven't said anything about this part, where do you plan on putting 250 colonies and how good is the forage and water there, that will be one of your limitations. Expanding in a poor forage area is counter productive in many ways, but if you have good forage it's relatively straight forward. Also, not treating might be counter productive at this stage too but that's all on how you want to get where you're going. If you're suffering 30-40% losses because you want to be treatment free while trying to expand, that's a lot of wheel spinning for nothing when you're trying to build up.
 
#23 ·
For me their are several limitations to expansion rate. 1. Money. With enough capital, you can do anything, but few of us have that privilege. I estimate $300/hive for capital, not including bees probably a bit low still. (Buildings, trucks, hive equipment, extracting equipment,etc) 2. Drawn comb, everything is more difficult without drawn comb. 1/2 the honey crop, twice the swarming, twice the beekeeper manipulation labour. 3. Beekeeper skill and winter survival.
Drawn comb is a HUGE! I finally have a surplus after 3 years, and man does it help. I started out with a similar mentality, and my magic number was 35-40 hives. Boy did I have an intro into farming/animal husbandry! What looks great on paper ain't reality. Started with a couple of hives + caught swarms. Had some poor mating of queens, weak hives, and having a newborn was enough that my colonies suffered a bit. Actually, I lost a lot this past year. But, things are looking good so far, and I'll be doing some grafting to make a round of queens to start new colonies.

Anyway, on a positive note, I am resolved to hit my numbers and keep them healthy. I think your goals are attainable, but prepare for some stumbling blocks. I would aim to do what Wolfer suggests, and hope to double every year. That way your spending the capital over time and learning to manage and decent sized business over a few years vs trial by fire.

Good luck!
 
#24 · (Edited)
I want to thank everyone who has posted, from the encouraging, positive suggestions to the "You're a darned fool!" suggestions. Through this discussion I feel like I have a much more realistic perspective about what is possible and reasonable. Not too bad for joining the forum yesterday.

Thanks!
 
#32 ·
More naive than foolish, that's all. Just giving you a dose of reality.

To paraphrase a mentor of mine, something he said 25 years ago. "I can make a list of names of people who wanted to make a living from bees that would stretch across the room."

Many are able, few are truly willing.
 
#26 ·
As Mike mentioned above expense will be a big factor. As I developed my business plan I quickly realized I needed to reduce my expansion rate. If you're plan is to make this a business, I would recommend contacting a local Small Business Development Center and take a step back and come up with a solid business plan so you have a good estimate of costs- then add 20% for everything you forgot to add into the plan.
 
#28 ·
I woudl say equipment is the most restricting thing to growth. Second would be my lack of experience in management. The bees ability to expand is very far down the list.

I started with bees in May of 2012 with one 5 frame nuc of bees. I made them a hive out of scrounged materials including making the frames myself. 30 days later I captured my first swarm and placed it in a Top Bar hive just becasue I had made one. By the end of that year i was called to a house with bees in the brick of their chimney. this resulted in a trap out that produced two nucs that went through winter as nucs. I was not even trying to expand and grew by 400%. I was just paying attention to how bees act etc. Pretty much everything I did was by the seat of my pants figure it out along the way and found no problems in doing it that way. It did require massive amounts of time and still does. So far I would say it all depends on how serious you are about it. and yo may want to hang the bike in the garage for a while.

Are you in fact willing to "Do It" or are you planning on just setting back in hope the Universe just collects itself together for your benefit? Evidently not enough Universe collected for some so I don't find it a reliable plan.

At the beginning of 2012 I set a goal to increase to 23 colonies. 2 langs to keep here at home as well as the Top Bar hive. 20 to move to an outyard. I also consider 2013 the year I learned what bees can really do. in the process I realized I was not at all prepared for it. Long story short I managed to get my 23 colonies have since lost one and harvested 250 lbs of honey from my 4 first year colonies and consider the entire year a near utter failure. Lost opportunities where left and right starting with swarm season that could have produced 19 new colonies all on it's own. we attempted grafting and queen rearing for the first time which percentage wise was an almost complete failure. Queen looses ran nearly 50% and the first half of the season is now a blur of nothing but trying to keep queens in my hives. Hives swarmed all over the place and we where capturing swarms faster than we could build equipment for them.

So from a year of pretty much nothing but potential to improve. We had a 600% increase. If you notice 600% is 1.5 times 400% increase. Plus there is still a lot of room to improve what we do. So from that same ratio of improvement meaning better increase. I have set the goal for this year to increase 900% or 1.5 times last years increase. In real numbers that puts me just about where you are except I also have 10 nucs.

I have 12 production colonies. 10 nucs and a Top Bar hive if I have to get real creative. my goal is to end the year with 207 colonies. My single greatest challenge is getting the equipment required. I am as of now set up with 27 4 compartment queen castles for just the swarm season alone. In the past week I have been in Contact with Michael Palmer in regard to grafting queens through the swarm period rather than just letting them make their own cells. If I am to do that my first box of brood will need to be collected and the first cell builder set up in 10 days.

It is very hard work. Including continuing to form my plan right up to the last moment. I have spent the last 2 months working to get one plan in place. in the past week that plan may have changed enough that it requires additional preparation. It is not easy to build 27 queen castles in my time after I come home from a full time job. I am not looking for easy. I am looking for done.

My greatest concern is not being able to produce 207 colonies. it is not entirely the ability to make the money to purchase that equipment. my greatest concern is my ability to manage it this time next year. 22 hives right now are a hand full. the entire dynamic of beekeeping will have to shift. It is time I start figuring out how the big boys do it. Increased looses due to less intense keepign is a given. I do not have a lot of commercial beekeeper in this area so having some place to go to see how they do it is not in the cards for me.

What I do have is the ability to figure it out. always have. I do not expect that to change. I am not certain just how much I want to know about how others do it. there results do not look that good to me. I want methods that work and work well. I may find that 200 hives kept well is better than 2000 hives kept poorly.
 
#33 ·
hi
to have any chance of being a sideline or commercial beekeeper you need to forget small cell and foundationless. some hobby beekeepers claim sucess but no university or researcher can prove benifits. jenifer barry of univ of ga actually showed an increase of mites in their testing. you have to be good at conventional beekeeping first. there are dozens of books written by hobby beekeepers. these people never have and never will make a living from bees. buy "the abc & xyz of bee culture" and "the hive and the honeybee". these two books ruin 100 dollars but are based on good beekeeping experence. there are a few other worthy books also out there. consider the author and their experence vs other hype. based on 50 yrs experence with up to 1200 hives and 3 yrs as a nys bee inspector. good luck
 
#34 ·
While I value your advice, Dee Lusby in AZ is a commercial small cell beekeeper who runs +700 hives and makes her living from selling honey. I've seen Dee's hives in person, and they are awesome. I would encourage you to go out there sometime and see for yourself that it can be done and that it works quite well.
 
#35 ·
Id say take it slow and dont get ahead of yourself. It takes time.
You could have all the experience in the world keeping a few hives and think you have alot of knowledge with beekeeping. But go from a few hives to a few hundred is a whole new ballgame. When I expanded a few years ago I went from 10 hives to 50 and the first couple years I was getting overwhelmed until I learned that I had to change some of my techniques to deal with 50 hives part time on my own.
It takes Time
 
#38 ·
To the op....based on your apparent philosophical approach, I think your questions would be better directed to Dee Lusby or Michael Bush.
I hope you will keep us informed of your progress.
Good luck.
 
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