You can keep bees as naturally in a Langstroth hive as a Warre. Just have the bees make foundationless combs. The wood is all the same.

 

I agree with odfrank you can do the same with a Lang and I wish I would have when I set up my Lang, I am in the process of building a Warre hive for the spring, mainly for the size since a Warre is smaller than a Lang and the history behind it is interesting. Anyway I wish you success on your journey in beekeeping, it is a lot of fun.

 

Many people keep bees naturally in Langstroth hives. I see no advantage to the Waree unless you are saving money by building the hive or unless you think a square Warre makes that much difference otherwise. I don't think it makes that much difference.

 

Supposedly the Warre hive has a smaller volume resulting in less heat loss and less honey needed to over winter. It is touted as more closely resembling a feral hive, top down bs bottom up. Is this an advantage?

 

Its an advantage in that bees never build comb 'up' in the wild, they always build down. This is fine if you only want to extract honey, but if you want to eat comb, Warres mean your comb will have been used for brood at some point before the bees moved down and filled the top with honey.

When brood is reared, once the larvae is capped, they turn to face the front of the cell and relieve themselves of everything in their system out the back. Also, they spin a cocoon inside the cell which they also leave in there. Its all very thin and dosn't take up much room, but I can't imagine it tastes real good or is pleasant to chew. If you take a look at some pictures, you can see that brood comb is all dark, and its pretty stiff. Newly drawn comb never used for brood is very light and thin and delicate (much nicer to eat!)

Mind, I've never had a Warre and this is my first year raising bees, so someone else may have a counter-opinion, but I was considering building Warres and decided not to when I found this out. (I like honeycomb!)

 

There are several threads here that discuss Warre hives in detail and what Abbe Warre intended when he designed that hive.

One issue is that the smaller size/volume is what he felt was better for retaining heat. He also felt that size was similar to the "average" void bees might nest in , in a tree.

He felt that by nadiring boxes he was taking advantage of the bees natural tendency to build comb from the top down.

So, technically speaking, using a standard Langstroth 8 or 10 frame hive body is not the same as using a box with warre dimensions or volume.

As we live now more than 50 years beyond his last writings on the subject, construction materials have changed (improved?) and we have more research into natural bee nests in trees (see the Seely/Morse study on nest volumes) and countless other environmental issues that warre did not have first hand experience with in his time.

Experimenting with his basic ideas is taking place all the time now.

 

>Supposedly the Warre hive has a smaller volume resulting in less heat loss and less honey needed to over winter.

A hive is whatever volume you leave it with depending on the number of boxes. If the issue is width, you can use eight frame boxes.

> It is touted as more closely resembling a feral hive, top down bs bottom up. Is this an advantage?

Feral hives don't "resemble" anything. They are located in old gas tanks, hollow horizontal tree limbs, soffets, tree trunks, bird houses and any other place they find. There is no consistency of size or orientation at all.

 

One thought, is that Langstroth hives were designed around primarily italian type bees, which have a biggish winter cluster. If using a Warré, the size might be more adaptable to say, pure carniolans, that have a small winter cluster. With the other Warré teachings such as the hive mat with water absorbant and dispersal materials in it, it seems to me that Ēmile was using weak hives and trying to deal with condensation issues.

So it could be that the breed of bee will be a factor, however carniolans for example, will have a smaller winter cluster suited to a Warré, but spring growth is explosive and swarm control for these bees in a traditionally run Warré would be near enough impossible.

Anyhow, I appreciated this remark

Feral hives don't "resemble" anything. They are located in old gas tanks, hollow horizontal tree limbs, soffets, tree trunks, bird houses and any other place they find. There is no consistency of size or orientation at all.

A lot of debate I've seen on this site about hive shape etc is ill informed and circuitous. However we should still endevour to meet our bees demands and requirements, the better the hive suits them the more productive they can be.

Condensation during winter in a langstroth can be an issue if there is a small winter cluster, because there is a large area unattended by bees that can be a moisture trap. This will be less so in a Warré. But it's not an issue in a langstroth during the main season for a healthy hive because a langstroth is designed with a large healthy bee population in mind, enabling a good honey crop.

 

If your goal is to use less chemicals treatments, it is not so much the design of the hive as it is simple universal practices that a beekeeper can employ to lesson the impact of parasites and diseases. Screened bottom boards, using Hygienic bees, good moisture control in the hive, knowing what's going in winter/spring with regards to food supply, changing out comb/foundation every couple years etc, etc. The style hive you end up using is purely a personal choice. Each design seems to has it proponents and detractors and I've heard many arguments as to why one design is superior to another. I'd take all these arguments with a grain of salt. I've seen bee colonies thriving in everything from an abandoned washing machine, to an old discarded couch, to an unused birdhouse. The bees don't seem to care about the space, as long as its dry, dark and somewhat protected. For the majority of hobbyist and professional alike, the Langstroth design seems to be the hive of choice. Low cost, availability and lots of ready information are the main reasons I suspect. And as you pointed out, members of your local bee-club all use them so why not.

You have a good Warre hive seller next door in Michigan. Checkout "thewarrestore dot com" Lots of info and videos on his website. I bought 3 modifies Warre boxes from him. Very nice stuff but definitely more expensive than Langstroth equipment. He does pay all shipping so if you factor that in, it really isn't that much more than ordering a Lang box and paying the freight. He can supply you with Warre sized full frames that you can use like a topbar or put foundation in it. That's what I went with and will run them without foundation, only a starter strip. If I have good success then I will probably set one up with topbars only. The Warre design has had much renewed interest since the "natural topbar hive" thing has gained traction. I would not recommend any newbie starting with a topbar hive though. The Langstroth design is allot more forgiving for beginners. I had to rescue two newbies this year from the "wacky" comb syndrome and leaky Kenyan hives. I agree with some of the other posters that there is no great advantage in using the Warre design. You can use most of the same practices with a Lang hive for less money while maintaining compatibility with your other equipment. You can also practice certain Langstroth techniques with a Warre which is what I am doing. That said I will probably be switching my other 2 Lang hives to Warre as I like the smaller size and the lighter weights will be better on my back. The main thing using these smaller boxes is you have pay greater attention to swarming potential as the bees run out of room fast in a Warre. Anyway, good luck with your new hobby and choice of hive and above all, have fun!

 

Thanks to all that have responded, it is nice to know that so many folks are willing to help out a new comer. You have given me much to mull over, it does seem that those of you who have tried a Warre hive either plan on continuing down this path or plan to add more Warre hives. That in itself is an endorsement for a different approach.

 

... it does seem that those of you who have tried a Warre hive either plan on continuing down this path or plan to add more Warre hives. That in itself is an endorsement for a different approach.

Or it means that since they spent the money, they might as well keep the hive.

Not saying that IS the case, just saying its a logical explaination for those who keep them while recommending you don't.

 

Sidenote: ehallspqr-- you mention 'leaky Kenyan hives' above. What was the issue? Did the newbies not know how to build correctly, or was it an issue with the design itself?

I'm asking because I'm about to build several Kenyans; its always good to avoid the issue than try to patch it up after the fact!

Thanks