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Discussion Starter #1
OK I have a question. I have a hive that likes to get a little swarmey They are in a single deep with a medium honey super. The honey super is full but not capped. Don’t want to pull it yet obviously. I run queen excluders. The question is should I put the super with the empty comb underneath or on top? Does it matter? I’ve heard people say to keep them from wanting a swarm to put it directly above the queen excluder.
 

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I would first check your deep as one deep with the excluder as this setup can easily be the basis for swarming. Next I place the empty super on top, predominately because lifting the lower heavier super is to difficult. Other folks place the empty super on the bottom. Not certain it makes a great deal of difference unless you rat the end of the season.
 

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you can do it either way.
The "Swarmy" could be a space issue, have a look at the true space open for brood in the deep at time you see 20% honey and 25% pollen, so really it is a NUC for laying space.

BTW I do a "both" I Pull 4 frames of honey out of the Super, Slide the rest together "centered" add 2 empty to each side. Add the super , center the 4 full frames , place the rest at the sides. Box movement by the bees seems to be harder to accomplish than the side to side next frame concept.

GG
 

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I used to do it and it was seldom a good practice. You end up with unfilled boxes down in the stack. Foundation especially, the bees tend to build a ladder of a frame or two of drawn comb and leave the rest alone. Without lifting full supers, you do not know what is down below. Just add them on top. If foundation, bring up a frame for the middle of the new box.
 

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If I had a single deep with a QE above a swarmy hive, I would get rid of the honey dome one way or another. J
 

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Wouldn't a swarmy hive be better off with 2 Deeps for Brood, then the QE and supers? That way she will always have room to lay?
 

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seems to me you are late in adding room to that colony. why is there only one super on now? is the brood nest open or full of nectar?

if they've already got it in them to swarm it doesn't matter where you put the new super they're going to the trees.
Best to get in that brood nest now and see whats what- open space for the queen to lay, eggs, clogged with nectar, primed queen cells. Could well be past swarm control time and now being swarm prevention time.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
They were from a split it did. Moved the queen to simulate swarm. I have been keeping a close eye on them. Checked a week ago and no swarm cups or cells. Lots of brood. Not a lot of honey in the brood chamber. Just wanted to give them more drawn comb. Trying to stay ahead of them. Haven’t added a second super because last week they only had it 3/4 full and not a lot of bee coverage. I will put one on tomorrow because they are on the sumac rite now. Just wanted to put the super in the best possible place.
 

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What kind of room is there in the brood nest for the queen to lay and what do the bottom of the medium frames look like?
Are the bottom of the medium frames empty and polished or do they hold nectar/honey? Things change quickly this time of year but only you know your flow and how heavy it could be.

If room is lacking in the deep and the bottom of the medium frames above the active brood nest are full of nectar/honey then undersuper is what I'd do, maybe with a frame of honey in the middle of it to get them on the empty drawn frames and into the space.
 

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If you have a deep of drawn comb. Remove the hive from the stand and place the deep there. Add one comb of brood to it. Shake all the bees into the empty deep that now has one frame of brood. Add queen excluder. Place old deep with brood on top; then honey super. Come back in 8 days and cut any cells that might be in the elevated brood box. Now the queen has lots of room to lay down below. The brood will hatch out in the other box and will now back fill with honey now being a honey super.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
you can do it either way.
The "Swarmy" could be a space issue, have a look at the true space open for brood in the deep at time you see 20% honey and 25% pollen, so really it is a NUC for laying space.

BTW I do a "both" I Pull 4 frames of honey out of the Super, Slide the rest together "centered" add 2 empty to each side. Add the super , center the 4 full frames , place the rest at the sides. Box movement by the bees seems to be harder to accomplish than the side to side next frame concept.

GG

I like the sounds of that. But my question is wouldn’t they fill the empty frames of drawn comb quicker if the empties were in the middle?
 

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I like the sounds of that. But my question is wouldn’t they fill the empty frames of drawn comb quicker if the empties were in the middle?
well i am not sure as I do it the way the bees do.
If you open them a lot one would see the bees somewhat start in the center on 2-4 frames, when those are being filled move out sideways, and typically here I see frame 1 and 9 being the last filled ( i do 9 in a 10 for the super)

by centering, full on top partially full on the bottom and empty to the sides, I am simply doing what the bees would do in a 12 inch space VRS the 6 inch space when taking the honey area from 1 medium to 2 mediums.

I guess if you had extracted comb you could try to put full to the edges and empty in the center, but at that point we are splitting hairs.

I "try" to do what the bees would do, then assist them , I have never see them fill outside first , then inside, so I have not simulated that. Early flow it may also work.

GG
 

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Discussion Starter #14
I Pull 4 frames of honey out of the Super, Slide the rest together "centered" add 2 empty to each side. Add the super , center the 4 full frames , place the rest at the sides. Box movement by the bees seems to be harder to accomplish than the side to side next frame concept.

GG
i think i miss understood you. When you said " i slide the rest together i assume they are not full yet?
 

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i think i miss understood you. When you said " i slide the rest together i assume they are not full yet?
correct if full you are too late, full is "now storing honey in the brood nest"
A strong hive can fill a super in a week if the conditions are right.

typically the "top" super ( can be #1 or#2 or #3)
Will at some point be 1/2 to 2/3 filled.
most of the time the center 1/3 is almost full to full, and the outer 1/3 is started to 1/2 full.
So one would take the center 4 frames out of the currently being worked super, place them in the center of the super to be added.
Then slide the outer frames of the super being worked together in the center, add the empties to the outside, (4 in this case) 2 each side.
Then add the next super with the already partially filled 4 frames centered, and then add the remaining to the outsides.
we now have the most filled moved up, the working just under them.
And 4 places where there is a new frame next to a working frame.

If we have all extracted comb this is maybe overkill/not necessary. However I often run out of comb and use starter strips, or FL frames.
In this case the bees seem reluctant to jump up to the next level, whereas they seem very willing to go sideways in an already "started"super.

the 5 empties in the top, now become the "fuze" when I open and they are filling these frames they are down to a week until out of space.
in general they will finish the lower , then move up, if there is flow time left the move up is the signal they have only a 1/2 super left to store and one needs to think about more space.

late flow I use this same idea to add a 1/2 super to 2 hives, split the top super into 2 supers of 1/2 full 1/2 empty, and add 1/2 and 1/2 super 2 hives.
can even do 1/3s where I take 3 frames from two hives add this to a box onto a 3rd hive fill all back up with empties so each of 3 hives get 3 empty frames.

GG
 

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Discussion Starter #16 (Edited)
Thanks for all the great advice. Basically what I was asking was does under super and have the same affect as putting the super on top as far as them thinking we have room no need to swarm.

I just went in there there’s no swarm cells or anything. They were starting to backfill a little bit but I added another super of drawn comb. In the supers I moved all the frames with nectar that hasn’t been capped yet to the outside. And the drawn empty comb in the middle of the supers.
 
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