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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I have been wanting to try out aspects of the tall narrow frame Ukrainian hive but am lazy about building dedicated frames and hive bodies. This could be a way to test the water without jumping in.:)

Using a pair of stacked Lang deep hive bodies and placing frames crosswise gives room for pairs of Siamesed medium Lang frames developing 12 1/2 inches wide. There would be room for 11 such pairs and a follower board. A couple of strips laying in the hive bottom for the standing frames to sit on, would bring them up even with the top of the hive bodies.

To maintain standard bee space a half inch filler sheet on either side would be added and only needs to be held with a couple of screws. The frames are zip tied for pictures. Other joining methods could be used and still allow quick separation to fit my extractor.

Conventional supers can be place above and those frames would be running 90 degs. to the brood frames. Pairs of 4 frame supers could be used too. A deep medium full of honey is getting heavier every year! I am not thrilled with the idea of crush and strain so want to have the ability to extract. Maybe this idea if it works out would help some others of us old bad backed geezers who are being stalked by the grim reaper.;)

I invite info on whether the bees would put much honey up into the supers when there is so much space on those deep frames. Perhaps some frames would need to be occluded by follower board. Wintering could be on perhaps 6 frames. Thoughts welcome about any obvious problems
 

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I invite info on whether the bees would put much honey up into the supers when there is so much space on those deep frames.
I have been running this setup for 3-4 years now.
Unsure, maybe four.
Pictured is the "second generation" hybrid hive made in 2019 summer.

Based on my experience - I found that the bee are SO comfortable on this particular brood nest setup they will not readily go up.
You almost need to squeeze them up using follower boards.
Also, need to make sure the passages between the frames to up are sufficiently wide (see my pictures - these seem to be prompting the bees to propolise them as if too narrow).

This is good subject and I have been sold for while now from the ergonomic standpoint - hands down. Have five of these hives active as we speak. Would have made more, but started on the CVH project tangent.

I will comment more when have time.
Need to winterize the vehicles rather urgently! :)
But you are welcome to study the existing and extensive chat - not a secret.
We have a full sub-forum just for this!

 

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In this video he talks about the frames in the Ukranian hive and says that the reason the bees do not move up willingly is the size of the top bar, the bottom space left between two frames and the orientation of the frames. They use a rod for the top bar, set the next box at a 90 degree angle and set the frames so the top one is resting on the bottom.

I like this set up except for the lower box as once again, it would at some point, require me to lift off the heavy middle one.

Last summer I set a med super full of empty foundation on top of my deep layens brood box. Because of my miscalculation for supering my layens I was left modifying the set up to accommodate a med super. As a result I set the super at a 90 degree angle to the bottom frames and was sitting right on top of the layens frames with no extra space. It was also set to the back of the hive of 16 frames not right over the brood nest. The bees went up into the super and built comb with no problem. Was I lucky, probably, but I wonder if the angle as well as the closeness of the super frames to the bottom ones played a part. Who knows but it is something I will try again next year.
 

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They use a rod for the top bar, set the next box at a 90 degree angle and set the frames so the top one is resting on the bottom.
If I could source those rods for (about) nothing, I'd give it a try.
I have been aware of their project for a while now but so far was unable to find good stock of the material to bother with it.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
If I could source those rods for (about) nothing, I'd give it a try.
I have been aware of their project for a while now but so far was unable to find good stock of the material to bother with it.
Greg, have a look at that video; I think it is tubing rather than rod. Not necessarily any cheaper by the foot but easier to cut. An outfit that does industrial instrumentation and controls would have odds and ends of it kicking around. When installing any mis bends scraps the whole length. Been there!

Looking at the space created to get above the horns of the rotated lang frames. Makes it hard to reduce the space between them and supered frames above as per UMinors comments. I am going that route to see how I like playing with that frame arrangement then would likely make some dedicated frames. Might make it easier to get them putting honey up above.
 

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Looking at the space created to get above the horns of the rotated lang frames. Makes it hard to reduce the space between them and supered frames above as per UMinors comments. I am going that route to see how I like playing with that frame arrangement then would likely make some dedicated frames. Might make it easier to get them putting honey up above.

Looking back at some of the comments in the thread you linked to I believe there was one where Greg showed that the rod would go thru one horn across both frames and thru the horn at the other end. So the horns would hang a little more below the rod but still leaves a greater space. It might not matter much.

I am also thinking that similar to the Ukrainian hive I want dedicated brood frames. But in a pinch I would be fine cutting off the horns of a couple of mediums and replacing it with a rod.

Just looking around at what I have in my 'save for a project' pile, I noticed that the tubing used for those spring held curtain rods was similar to his rods. I think our Restore Store might have some curtain rods for a good price.
 

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Greg, have a look at that video; I think it is tubing rather than rod.
Yes, it is pipe OR U-shape.
They have both in usage.
About 1/2 inch in diameter.

Actually a piece of hard wood 1/2x3/4 would do just as well functionally.
Even a piece of hard wood 1/2x1/2 might do but risky.
But if metal is available, then it is a no-brainer.
 

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We are experimenting with three variations of deep frame hives based on Lazutin hives with double deep brood frames. One is a second generation Lazutin deep frame horizontal, one a modified Laztin where half is deep frames for brood and wintering honey and other half separated by excluder of deep super frames, the last a vertical hive with a double deep base with excluder between higher supers( lovely langstroth design). All have 2" of hi-R foam insulation in walls and 6 in winter covers. We make our double deep frames by attaching one 9" deep plastic frame over another(removing tabs on lower frame). We connect them with metal brick ties used to hold brick to walls(a long metal strip) so we can separate them and put in standard extractor basket. It is a little extra work put we don't have lots of hives. Only going into our second winter with them. So far so good. We are trying Certfd Russians to improve winter survival in our harsh winter.
 

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No need to make a whole new frame. Just new end bars. Or cut an end bar in half (just below the "flare") and attach a spacer to the length you want, inside the end bars. This could be a deep and medium depth? I have one that is 3 shallow boxes. Frames are foundationless, deep fried with spacer in end bars and a dowel vertically in middle. I thought bee space being off where end bars are cut could pose a problem but it had not yet. I do super on top like normal Lang. I don't particularly like it, have not noticed an advantage.
Not sure that much wood in the comb will be easy for them in the cold. I am sure they could survive fine but it may not be as efficient as possible....
 

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I would caution those without experience of using large frames - the Lazutin frames are large.
Like really large.
So large, indeed, that the point of ergonomic beekeeping is being defeated to a point.

One needs to be able to handle a frame with a single hand in a variety of cases - forget about it with the Lazutin.
Handling a frame single-handedly while smoking/brushing/spaying the frame or catching a queen - this is routine requirement.
With Lazutin this will quickly become a PITA.

To compare, the deep Dadant/Ukrainan size is a good compromise and it works well.
At the same time two attached Lang medium frames give you exact sizing - a no-brainer to construct frames from repurposed Lang junk
Orient them vertically - get the Ukrainian frame.
Orient them horizontally - get the Dadant frame.
A bonus - a single Land deep frame can be easily fitted into the Ukrainian/Dadant hive just as well - a good temp solution when not better choices are available.

So, beware - I told you about the Lazutin.
Yes, it does sound sexy. :) Some funky hives.
I read the book too - cover to cover and in the original language.
Some ideas are fine and workable elsewhere too.
Other ideas are non-portable.
 

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I agree that full 18x18 frame filled with honey is a two hand operation to lift but as bee survival is our goal(for our hobby orchid pollination) I want to have wintering bees have as close natural comb size yet be able to be somewhat standard for frames and fitting extractor for the limited surplus honey we do take. It is not that hard to handle a few frames with a partner for a couple of hives for hobby beeks. Trying to insure winter survival thru -38 nights for those who can't send their bees on winter vacations to the almond groves need to try what ever it takes.
 

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but as bee survival is our goal(for our hobby orchid pollination) I want to have wintering bees have as close natural comb size
Then do realize that the 18x18 comb size is as far from the natural comb size as possible.
:)

If anything, this picture here is much closer to the natural comb size AND orientation:
 

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That appears to be a 9x18 frame on end. If it is you are agreeing that 18' or so deep is of value. Width of comb is more likely more variably deterimed by hollow space built in. I think 18x18 is also not an exact but just easier to adapt existing frames to while creating a deeper frame than 9" x2 which is common practice for wintering cluster. My first deep frame hive has custom frames 13x17, fitting an old insulated cooler I modified, but extracting methods were limited, foundation had to be customized and installing new bees from nukes(which was the only Russians came locally) wasn't possible. Cross using frames from one experimental hive to another won't be possible either without some standardization - hence the Lanstroth, Warren, Dadant. I'm not suggesting that 18x18 is the best size or only size. But I do think that a deeper single comb is advantageous to winter cluster survival. Which is needed in every possible way here in the Great White North, lol.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
That appears to be a 9x18 frame on end. If it is you are agreeing that 18' or so deep is of value. Width of comb is more likely more variably deterimed by hollow space built in. I think 18x18 is also not an exact but just easier to adapt existing frames to while creating a deeper frame than 9" x2 which is common practice for wintering cluster. My first deep frame hive has custom frames 13x17, fitting an old insulated cooler I modified, but extracting methods were limited, foundation had to be customized and installing new bees from nukes(which was the only Russians came locally) wasn't possible. Cross using frames from one experimental hive to another won't be possible either without some standardization - hence the Lanstroth, Warren, Dadant. I'm not suggesting that 18x18 is the best size or only size. But I do think that a deeper single comb is advantageous to winter cluster survival. Which is needed in every possible way here in the Great White North, lol.
I think that width beyond about 14 inches does not make for the most efficient positioning of winter stores. Depth much beyond 12 inches starts to make the bees disinclined to put honey in frames above. (not so efficient based on extracting or cut comb honey production but not a draw back for crush and strain). That is just my opinion or way of selecting frame size if utilizing of existing frames is important or not. Pure winter survival question is often on other end of the weight scales
 

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I have not tried this but one could reduce crush and strain, if standard top bars are used, by putting deep frames in slots 1,2,9,10, then qx and supers. If comb drawn below bottom bar that would need to be crushed. Then outer frames could be harvested when no brood in them and replaced with insulation for winter....
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
I have not tried this but one could reduce crush and strain, if standard top bars are used, by putting deep frames in slots 1,2,9,10, then qx and supers. If comb drawn below bottom bar that would need to be crushed. Then outer frames could be harvested when no brood in them and replaced with insulation for winter....
Yes the frames for extraction would not need to be in the works for wintering. There would be lots of room behind the rear follower board. I know that a lot of stores will likely go unused in my 11 inch by 19 Dadant Lang frame colonies. I probably should have removed several of the outer frames and replaced with insulated follower boards when I was feeding them up in the fall.
 

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That appears to be a 9x18 frame on end. If it is you are agreeing that 18' or so deep is of value.
Absolutely I agree that the depth is beneficial.
I have been ranting on the very subject since I joined the Beesource.

What depicted is a standard deep Lang frame turned at 90 degrees - it is almost identical to one of the older Euro frame designs (the Levitsky frame seems the closest).
A bit too narrow from a practical human standpoint, but it works.

And so we see,
Warre (original frame) = 300x400 mm.
Layens frame = 310x400 mm.
to which can be added,
Levitsky frame = 240x432 mm.
Ukrainian frame = 300x435 mm.
From a very good summary by LJ (@little_john).
These are examples of frames that, in fact, actually consider the sizing of the winter cluster and allow for the best possible (and natural) bee environment.

To compare the widths of Lang/Dadant (and Lazutin which inherits the same) are superficial and connected to some produce tare sizing that happened to be handy at the design time - ~435mm.
This frame width gives no consideration to the actual bee ergonomics.
But since the bees are flexible enough, they still manage.


 

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Yes the frames for extraction would not need to be in the works for wintering. There would be lots of room behind the rear follower board. I know that a lot of stores will likely go unused in my 11 inch by 19 Dadant Lang frame colonies. I probably should have removed several of the outer frames and replaced with insulated follower boards when I was feeding them up in the fall.
Let me be obnoxious some more.

Basically, when feeding on deep frames you want:
  • reduce the number of frames to the number you want to winter on (6 to 8 in general, depending on the cluster size).
  • feed.

If you feed onto a overly large number of frames, bees will simply spread the intake across ALL frames and create a sub-optimal setup
Instead, you want to concentrate the feed on the precise number of frames that will be needed.
Speaking of number of large frames needed for wintering, I already hanged up so many materials, I will not hang yet another one. :)

Font Rectangle Parallel Plot Slope
 

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Depth much beyond 12 inches starts to make the bees disinclined to put honey in frames above.
Not necessarily.
For whatever reason, some bee lines are less likely to go up (but yet others will readily go up).
For whatever reason the Italians in similar setups often seem to go crazy and just go into non-stop brood production (and just stay in the brood nest). The spill over bees will go up, BUT whatever they bring in, gets eaten to produce yet more brood. The extensive brooding space backfires in this regard.
Happened often enough to me so I feel this is a trend.

However, the Carni are more likely to go up and store honey as expected of them.
Like here:
 
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