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“…I Kept bees from late 70's through late 80's and only remember one swarm. This year I had 5 of 8 of my original colonies swarm….” DRUR
Post#8: http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=242688


DRUR,
Your achievement (from late 70's through late 80's ) is very close to this one:
"...Another point to ponder. If one of the primary causes for swarming, is, amongst other reasons, too much heat, it stands to reason that with a ventilated hive there should be less swarming tendencies. That is what we have found, in eight years we haven't had a hive swarm on us."
Beekeeper with 50 years of experience. (http://www.beeworks.com/d_e_details.html)

Therefore I would like to know your personal opinion about my statement:
“When a feral colony begins overcrowding inside of a hollow tree or another natural cavity, a portion of the bees swarm.
However, swarming within a managed bee hive usually presents a sign of poor beekeeping practices.
For example, if your bee colony became unhealthy, for any one of many potential reasons (chemical treatments, usage of high fructose corn or sugar syrups and other supplemental, neglect of a clean water source and so on), generally the bees would not be able to handle even small temperature increases inside the hive.
The problem is getting worse, if your hive ventilation is poor.
In such situations, the colony will swarm not because it has to swarm, but rather because it cannot maintain itself in this strenuous environment.
Also, more importantly, there is NO real proof that any healthy and well-managed hive has to swarm”

In addition:
1. Could you show me some photos with your hive location?
2. What is the thickness of your hive bodies?
3. Do you have temperature control in your hives?
4. How do you treat your bees?

Thanks.
Boris Romanov
 

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Not speaking for Drur, 1. this sounds like a personal attack and 2. this should be a private message not a public thread!

Not to mention sounds like you are going for yet another fight.
 

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Not to mention sounds like you are going for yet another fight.
Exactly, anyone who words a subject the way Boris did is attempting to anger people. It's obvious there is no need to try and convince Boris that swarming will happen in some well managed hives, his mind is closed when it comes to this subject...
 

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“…I Kept bees from late 70's through late 80's and only remember one swarm. This year I had 5 of 8 of my original colonies swarm….” DRUR
Post#8: http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=242688


DRUR,
Your achievement (from late 70's through late 80's ) is very close to this one:
Boris, my bees are located on the same property they were during the 70's and 80's. All my colonies are located where they get full sunlight early in the morning as the sun is rising but enter into the shade about 2:30-3:00 PM during the hotest part of the day. I attribute the swarming to the breed, and not anything else as I implemented all recommended management practices. However, I am certainly open to other suggestions. During the 70's and 80's I had only Midnights. I requeened every late summer/early fall to maintain this hybrid line. I ordered my queens from the Weaver's and if I remember correctly it was Howard Weaver. It was my understanding that the midnights were from two lines of Caucasions, bred back into each other, or this is what I remember with my conversations with the Weavers back then. Later some have said that the midnights were a cross between Caucasions and Carniolians, but I don't believe this to be initially true. Caucasions are known for their lack of swarming tendency. All mine swarmed during April thru the first week of May so heat was definitely not a problem.

Therefore I would like to know your personal opinion about my statement:
“When a feral colony begins overcrowding inside of a hollow tree or another natural cavity, a portion of the bees swarm.
I believe swarming is a natural God given instinct for propagating bees.

"Swarming is an instictive part of the annual life cycle of the honeybee colony. The tendency to swarm is usually greatest when the bees increase their population rapidly in the period before the honey-flow." The Hive and the Honey Bee, 1975 ed. p. 377.

Therefore I would like to know your personal opinion about my statement:
“When a feral colony begins overcrowding inside of a hollow tree or another natural cavity, a portion of the bees swarm.
However, swarming within a managed bee hive usually presents a sign of poor beekeeping practices.
I either checkerboarded [all medium colonies] or reversed brood boxes [deep with medium colonies] about the middle of February. I then split my 8 colonies to 20 colonies the first week of March. At the time my colonies swarmed all had open brood areas and honey supers [mostly undrawn], so being crowded definitely was not a problem. I am open to suggestions concerning these generally accepted management procedures to prevent swarming. Now, which of my management procedures do you believe to be "poor beekeeping practices"?

For example, if your bee colony became unhealthy, for any one of many potential reasons (chemical treatments, usage of high fructose corn or sugar syrups and other supplemental, neglect of a clean water source and so on), generally the bees would not be able to handle even small temperature increases inside the hive.
1. My colonies are treatment free.
2. All my colonies had stored honey which they gathered from the prior fall. We have a good fall flow and I leave all of the fall flow with my bees. However, I did have one colony that I requeened in October which was weak and which I fed sugar syrup so the bees would have adequate stores for winter. This colony which was fed sugar syrup was 1 [MHQ] of the 3, [of the original 8] that did not swarm. So from my experience sugar syrup would have nothing to do with swarming.
3. I have natural springs that run year round, also two ponds all within 30-50 yeards of my bees locations.
4. I can assure you the temperatures during April had absolutely nothing to do with swarming IMO.

The problem is getting worse, if your hive ventilation is poor.
:scratch: during the 70's and 80's when I had no swarming I had solid bottom boards and bottom entrances. I now have open screened bottom boards with top entrances:scratch:. No, I don't think poor ventilation was the problem.

In such situations, the colony will swarm not because it has to swarm, but rather because it cannot maintain itself in this strenuous environment.
From the above please tell me the strenuous environment which caused them to swarm?

there is NO real proof that any healthy and well-managed hive has to swarm
This is nothing but a meaningless, pointless statement IMO.

1. Could you show me some photos with your hive location?
No, but my description should be adequate. I have a camera but no ability to post the photos, but you are welcome to come photograph and post, just give me some advance notice of a day or two so I will be here to show you all my locations and point all my ponds and streames. Also all my colonies straddle landscaping timbers set upon cinder blocks about 1 foot off the ground; thereby fully exposing the 3/4 of the screened bottom boards.

2. What is the thickness of your hive bodies?
Standard size from Walter T. Kelley about 3/4" thick, same as back during the 70's and 80's.
3. Do you have temperature control in your hives?
Yes, each colony is airconditioned by the bees fanning if it gets to hot, and the bees clustering if the bees get to cold.

4. How do you treat your bees?
I pet them and talk to them every night before I tuck them into bed. Oh, in case you mean chemical treatments, I am completely treatment free. Last summer, I did treat one colony which had not regressed to small cell with powdered sugar as they had high mite counts, 40-50, for 24hr drop. Then we went into the hot summer, the queen quit laying in August and came out in September with negligible mite drops. Last time I treated with anything, but now all are fully regressed.

If you will read what The Hive and Honey Bee states above about swarming, this is the classic case that fits my swarm issues. I actually question all of your statements and am surprised that someone with as much experience can actually believe these conclusions.

Regards
Danny Unger
 

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Therefore I would like to know your personal opinion about my statement:

However, swarming within a managed bee hive usually presents a sign of poor beekeeping practices.
Actually Boris, I would have to agree with this statement. My swarming problems was the direct result of my lack of experience with dealing with this problem. In hindsight the following are things which I either should have recognized as a swarm issue or had I had the experience would have dealt with the problem in advance.

1. In all those that swarmed there was an abnormal amount of frames with stored pollen, especially for early spring when the colonies are in rapid build up. After swarm, I discovered that all had several solid frames of pollen.

2. All those which swarmed commonly had open queen cell cups in the colony. A trait of Carniolian and Russian breed of bees which have a high tendency to swarm.

So, in the future, when examinining colonies I will take note when there seems to be excessive amounts of solid frames of pollen. Also, I will no longer keep colonies which display the traits of Carniolian or Russian breed of bees. I intend to acquire some Caucasians, and only run Caucasians and/or Italians. Those that have queen cell cups on a normal basis throughout the colony throughout the year will recieve my prompt attention for requeening to those of the Italian or Caucasian Race.

Kindest Regards
Danny
 

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Careful Danny, lest you should fall into an obsession leading to a need to continually make judgemental comments.

In my opinion, such an obsession is a sign of a poorly managed life.

I haven't had any swarms since I started keeping bees again a couple of years ago. I may have had some in the past. I don't remember and, more importantly, I don't care.

Wayne
 

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Discussion Starter #8 (Edited)
Danny Unger,

For now – please read this info ( especially temperature changes, I will add more details, related to your question soon):

Monitoring of swarming sounds in bee hives for early detection of the swarming period

"Beekeeping, known as one of the oldest forms of agriculture, in its complexity requires control for honey production with what modern technology can offer. Honey is included in animal production implying that farmers have interest in big productions according to the best blooming time, the presence of parasites, the genetic strain of his bees and the swarming periods of the honeybees (queen and her workers leaving the hive). This last fact has a big economic interest for the beekeeper as swarming means honey loss since bees start collecting the honey to migrate. Here for a method that enables the prediction of the swarming is required to prevent the queen from leaving the hives. In this experiment an acoustic method based on labelling of sounds is proposed to predict the swarming period. Three hives were monitored during 270h. The microphones were sited inside the hives together with a temperature and humidity sensor. The sounds were recorded with a sample rate of 2kHz, and analyzed via Matlab and Cool Edit Pro. During this period 9 swarming activities occurred. Swarming is indicated by an increase in the power spectral density at about 110Hz; approaching to swarm the sound augmented in amplitude and frequency to 300Hz, occasionally a rapid change occurred from 150Hz to 500Hz. Another finding indicating the initiation of a swarming period is the raise in temperature from 33^oC to 35^oC until the actual time of swarming when the temperature starts dropping to 32^oC. With more activity, ventilation from bee wings causes drop of temperature. Less information comes from the correlation between sound and humidity since this parameter is too much influenced by the external conditions and no significant variation occurred according to a swarm. This increase of temperature, together with the changes in acoustical features of the sound recorded in the hive, may be used as a predictor for swarming of the bees to reduce honey loss."
From: http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=1410475.1410714
My monitoring tools are here: http://www.beebehavior.com/hive_monitoring.php

In addition, please analyze temperature data from this link:
http://www.beebehavior.com/paint_colors_test.php
You will see that thickness of your hive bodies (not only yours – almost all hives in the U.S.) and standard ventilation approach is not sufficient compare to my hive bodies/hives (type #4).

Therefore I would like to get your temperature data especially prior, during and after swarming. Without such data we cannot find the real cause of your hive’s swarming, if you think your hive changes since late 80's. did not lead to ventilation changes of your hives.

Thank you.
Boris Romanov
 

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This may work for a study, but I doubt it is economically feasable to have these sensors in each colony. Certainly not from a commercial basis. I intend to have my bees make a reasonable return for my time and effort.

1. Exactly what does it cost to have these sensors place in a colony?
2. Where can you acquire these sensors?
3. How much time is required to monitor these sensors?

Kindest Regards
Danny Unger
 

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Careful Danny, lest you should fall into an obsession leading to a need to continually make judgemental comments.

In my opinion, such an obsession is a sign of a poorly managed life.
Sorry waynesgarden, right or wrong we are often judged by our prior statements, Quite frankly, as the results of your prior posts we are certainly in opposition to each others opinions in all respects that I can remember. I certainly am not interested in your 'judgmental' opinion concerning my supposedly obsession and poorly managed life. I certainly feel my life has been quite successful, but fortunately it is my belief that you nor anyone else in this world will be my judge, or at least not with regards to the important things. God will be my judge as the Hebrew meaning of my name implies.

Regards
Daniel
 

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Discussion Starter #11
...
1. Exactly what does it cost to have these sensors place in a colony?
2. Where can you acquire these sensors?
3. How much time is required to monitor these sensors?

Kindest Regards
Danny Unger

Danny Unger,

Two answers to your questions are here (the very last picture from this link):
http://www.beebehavior.com/hive_ventilation.php
3. You can see temperature data immediately

Boris Romanov
 

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Boris,
You are right, you are absolutely right, you couldn't be more right. There, now are you happy?

No more needs to be said about this. Don't feed the bear. Don't carry a scorpion across the river, no matter how much he promises not to sting.
 

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Exactly, anyone who words a subject the way Boris did is attempting to anger people. It's obvious there is no need to try and convince Boris that swarming will happen in some well managed hives, his mind is closed when it comes to this subject...
I wonder if this is a cultural thing? Being where Boris is from, where and how he was brought up. Maybe we have some cultural misinterpretation going on here.

Let's say that Boris doesn't intend to be confrontational, that's just the way he comes across in his passionate way of expressing himself. Perhaps he feels a need to defend his position before it is even attacked.

Any comments on that Boris? I'm trying to give you what we call the benefit of the doubt.
 

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Boris:

Also, my McAfee site advisor, advises me not to trust your site.

Maybe you could explain that.
 

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This thread from the beginning seemed to be a personal attack on Drur. Personally i think it is wrong and thread deleted...but alas that is my opinion.

Boris you constantly send people to your site for answers. How about sending people to unbiased sites so as to not propagate your personal views.

My apologies Drur, I know you can fend for yourself. I just disliked this thread from the start.
 

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My apologies Drur, I know you can fend for yourself. I just disliked this thread from the start.
No Apologies necessary, justice is the responsibility of all. Actually, I don't believe it was an attack on me. This thread was started, as all of Boris' are, for one reason, to eventually get around to forwarding traffic to his site. His conclusions are baseless, otherwise he would make a sensible response. Point out the errors of my ways, etc., etc. but alas that was not his purpose for this thread.

I will state it again, MY MCAFEE SITE ADVISORY INFORMS ME NOT TO TRUST BORIS' SITE.

Kindest Regards
Danny
 

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Very odd way to post questions - didn't see it as a personal attack exactly though... but very odd.

(not to change the subject)
Am I mistaken but you can try to control swarming but that doesn't mean it will work. You can do everything you can think of but they may still get one out. I mean even the demeree (?spelling?) method - isn't it basically a form of "swarming" (your separating some form of the hive's normal make-up). So it is all kind of reactive to seeing signs that they are going to swarm.

Boris - Could you simply state what you are trying to point out so I can understand (please no links).

How thick is a tree? What ventilation does a tree have? What temperature control does the tree have?

Thanks
Mike
 

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Where is Walt when you need him on this subject. Danny, read up on Walt's work with nectar flow and swarming.

As stated many times, swarming are bees natural way to propogate. It's in their DNA. Why can't people just accept that fact. Can you stop or keep swarming down, yes. But is it really a best practice?

Bees bent on swarming are a natural way to do a walk away split with queen cells.
 

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1. In all those that swarmed there was an abnormal amount of frames with stored pollen, especially for early spring when the colonies are in rapid build up. After swarm, I discovered that all had several solid frames of pollen.
I believe you stated you used checkerbording. And you said there was a bunch of pollen in the hives when they swarmed. I think that is referred to as back filling by Walt and a sign swarming is in progress. Not sure though. M.B. I believe suggests opening the brood nest by inserting a couple of frames of foundation or frames with no foundation, in the center of the brood nest. I’m just saying.
 

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Actually, Danny, I wasn't referring to you. You aren't the one making the judgemental claims that if a person has a hive that swarms, he or she is somehow a bad beekeeper.

But I'll be happy to just never reply to any post of yours if holding grudges is what you wish to do.

All the best.

Wayne
 
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