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you got it, the statement "But a fertilized egg gets ALL of the the drones (16 out of 16) DNA " is untrue, or false depending on your point of view.
OR - MSL has some magic fresh sci. article up his sleeve.
Never know!
:)
 

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Discussion Starter #82
WTF yall?
The drone gets 1/2 of his mother's genetics (16 out of 32 chromosomes) just like any other egg, There are 65,536 different chromosomal combinations for the queen to pass on to the egg, add in the recombination rate (witch is exream in bees) and its about 3.4 million combos (3,406,833)
But a fertilized egg gets ALL of the the drones (16 out of 16)
one missed apostrophe? realty guys?
it should read "Drone's" (as in the father's, or sire's) 16 chromosomes.
basic bee math here, Russ provided a great link to subject mater. And we know from modern DNA studys that queens mate with far more then 16 drones

Rewinding to Salty
How much jelly is left for the queen at arrival?
I care less for shipping... plenty of ways to distribute genetics across state lines for a $$$... local distribution and use is very different.
That said, most have been shipped in JZBZ cups (Latshaw, Comfort, Kefuses) so any issuse "should" have been seen
You may get good genes in a relatively poor queen.
and that good sir is the point of the sare grant, to answer the question of quality, while the experts claim you can make great queens this way.. no one has proved it in a large scale study, and what we "know" seem to change with such actions
 

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what we "know" seem to change with such actions

And you get at my real pondering. On the face of it interrupting feeding would fly in the face of raising high quality queens. Must be a lesson in the the difference, though I have no idea what.
 

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WTF yall?
With your typing, MSL, never know what you meant.
It can go either way.
Sorry, but it is really hard to read and follow the thought, IMO.
That is regarding the WTF.

All right, I suppose, I better do my "paid for job", not try to follow the BS too much on the top.
:)
 

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Discussion Starter #85
That is regarding the WTF.
fair eunff it was late...
but i kinda figgerd that at this point we had established the 16 chromosome thing

On the face of it interrupting feeding would fly in the face of raising high quality queens
it would "seem" while feeding is interrupted, eating is not as the larva is in a very large pool of jelly
24 hour cells
grafts-24hrs.JPG
48 hour cells
grafts-48-hrs.JPG
Pictures form david laferney's offsite version of the Josef Clemens system http://doorgarden.com/2011/11/07/simple-honey-bee-queen-rearing-for-beginners/

You can see why the 48s were chosen over 24s for transport, the cup is almost full of jelly and the larva is still to tiny to even get close to eating it all in a few hours...
but as I noted, I haven't seen results empirically tested as to quality, so intill that happens a bit healthy skepticism is a good thing.
my "gut" says they are fine for a few hours out of a hive under beekeeper care, in a commercial package system full of box throwing monkeys (I worked in a sorting center one collage break) .... not so sure.
Dr Latshaw took 60% losses on over night shipping (12 out of 20) and the cell builder tore down 3 of the 8 that went in a 25% sucess rate, however he did package differently then people who say they have had great success so there is likely room for improvement on that number
however when driven about 30 min by a beekeeper, Latshaw saw a 95% success rate. This fits in nicely with my 20 min drive test that had 91% success rate
 

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fair eunff it was late...
but i kinda figgerd that at this point we had established the 16 chromosome thing



it would "seem" while feeding is interrupted, eating is not as the larva is in a very large pool of jelly
24 hour cells
View attachment 53285
48 hour cells
View attachment 53287
Pictures form david laferney's offsite version of the Josef Clemens system http://doorgarden.com/2011/11/07/simple-honey-bee-queen-rearing-for-beginners/

You can see why the 48s were chosen over 24s for transport, the cup is almost full of jelly and the larva is still to tiny to even get close to eating it all in a few hours...
but as I noted, I haven't seen results empirically tested as to quality, so intill that happens a bit healthy skepticism is a good thing.
my "gut" says they are fine for a few hours out of a hive under beekeeper care, in a commercial package system full of box throwing monkeys (I worked in a sorting center one collage break) .... not so sure.
Dr Latshaw took 60% losses on over night shipping (12 out of 20) and the cell builder tore down 3 of the 8 that went in a 25% sucess rate, however he did package differently then people who say they have had great success so there is likely room for improvement on that number
however when driven about 30 min by a beekeeper, Latshaw saw a 95% success rate. This fits in nicely with my 20 min drive test that had 91% success rate
in having a conversation with one of the folks that has suggested shipping 48 hour cells, i was reminded that its not really about quality so much as way to move stock as i had similar question. you arent trying to make a powerhouse production colony. essentially just creating a drone mother to produce replica drones for mating.
 

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Exactly BBB. Take the shipping out of it for a min, One could drive 4 hours ,Pick up 10-15 48hr cells, drive back, install them in 10-15 NUCs and in 30 days be producing drones for a couple rounds of queen mating, to bring in traits best passed from the Drone side. The producer can do a frame of Bars every 48hours, mathematically optimizing the number of drone mothers to spread into the breeding programs within a 4-6 drive from his site. A georgia queen breeder could even truck 4-6 hives to Montana and produce 100s of 48hr cells in a few weeks and head back, at the end of the month. Once a suitable mailing/shipping method emerges, then shipping them can also work. "Maybe Drones" to deliver these would be practical, (Small airplanes)" I once spoke with a gal who Drove Horse Sperm from northern Michigan to Kentucky every monday, for insemination on tuesdays. She was making like 20-30K a trip. If the reason is there, moving these cells would be done by someone. Floating on the Royal Jelly seems to be a robust time in the life of a queen, maybe we figure out a way to make that work. It may catch on, be interesting to watch.
GG
 

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Discussion Starter #88
A georgia queen breeder could even truck 4-6 hives to Montana and produce 100s of 48hr cells in a few weeks and head back
yuck:bus
Why, if its a time of year cells can be localy produced and used, would you not want to get 48s from a local producer of winter hardy, mite resistant, locally adapted stock.
 

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Feeding factor is one consideration and I am sure temperature and humidity would be another variable. It is suggested that exact temperature control is not critical either, but if it was controlled, as it easily could be in an a common incubator, the larvae might not be appreciably compromise at all.
 

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yuck:bus
Why, if its a time of year cells can be localy produced and used, would you not want to get 48s from a local producer of winter hardy, mite resistant, locally adapted stock.
you could get what ever stock you wanted. BTW often northern folks have a place in the south where they take the breeder hives to get a head start on the year.
I do not know the Why I am only discussing the how, WHY is up to someone else.
:)
GG
P.S. who is the local producer in Montana, to send out 48HR cells? Maybe need a directory for that. ..
 

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Feeding factor is one consideration and I am sure temperature and humidity would be another variable. It is suggested that exact temperature control is not critical either, but if it was controlled, as it easily could be in an a common incubator, the larvae might not be appreciably compromise at all.
Road trip with 12V incubator to Guelph :) or a plane ride
GG
 

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Discussion Starter #92
Road trip with 12V incubator to Guelph or a plane ride
you want them cool, not warm.
P.S. who is the local producer in Montana, to send out 48HR cells? Maybe need a directory for that.
the next yard over from the Georgia queen breeder in your example :lookout:
can't help you with Montana but at least 3 in Michigan selling cells... 48 or other wise... one is advertising Canadian Buckfast 48s
 

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"you want them cool, not warm."

What is the optimal temperature then? Humidity? Light? I should have said under controlled conditions.
 

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you want them cool, not warm.

the next yard over from the Georgia queen breeder in your example :lookout:
can't help you with Montana but at least 3 in Michigan selling cells... 48 or other wise... one is advertising Canadian Buckfast 48s
where did you see the 3 in Michigan?
thanks for the tip
GG
 

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Discussion Starter #98 (Edited)
GWW, quite a bit, It takes about 5x the amount of bees to finish feeding a 48 then it took to make it

Bernhard, I don't see a difference.. yes the nicot has a lot more plastic in the appliance making things look bigger/longer, but the wax rim past the plastic is about the same
in the JZBZ picture we can see the larva has been well fed and has plenty of excess jelly in the cup. for sure I have seen bigger, arguably any difference could be cells being 2days old and being called 48s as is common ... ie 48s +-8 hours depending on when they were grafted and when they were pulled Ie grafted friday evening and pulled Sunday mid morning

Crofter, in Breeding Super Bees, Taber says "Eggs and newly-hatched larvae which have been separated from the bees will do best at 90-96% humidity and 33F. I have kept them on ice for more then 48 hours with no Ill effects" so likely close to that, but I don't think any one has worked out the "best" for this age group beyond dark,cool,damp.
if refrigerated storage could extend there longevity it would be a boom... the ability to take to a weekend conference and hand out/sell on Sunday afternoon would be quite handy.
 

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Wow! " Taber says "Eggs and newly-hatched larvae which have been separated from the bees will do best at 90-96% humidity and 33F. I have kept them on ice for more then 48 hours with no Ill effects" so likely close to that"

I was thinking a parallel with "chilled brood" mortality. At the 48 hr. stage that obviously does not apply.
 
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