[GregB]

Tom Glenn was espousing this point over 20 years ago now - he's proved quite prescient on a good many things regarding resistance breeding:

And herein is the other issue - the L-word is missing.
.....This is lucky for us because by starting with queens inbred for the trait, a breeder can easily import the trait into his stock at the 50% level. ....

Sure enough the I-word is right there (the importation).
Then everyone jumps on that importation train - heck, even researchers suggest doing the same.

By importation you trying to fix a feature A (because all everyone cares for is the A).
BUT - all the while you screw the features X, Y, Z and more.

SO the Brits are getting it right.
But the US folk are sitting on the quick fix pill - a cultivated trait around here.
Which is obviously not working - the ready-to-go, imported bees.

Import the trait once (pretty much have to in the absence of the native pops).
But then fix the trait in place.
Let it all sit and brew (even if getting thru the bottlenecks). Takes time, patience and luck.

 

[Gray Goose]

And herein is the other issue - the L-word is missing.
.....This is lucky for us because by starting with queens inbred for the trait, a breeder can easily import the trait into his stock at the 50% level. ....

Sure enough the I-word is right there (the importation).
Then everyone jumps on that importation train - heck, even researchers suggest doing the same.

@GregB
well to be fair all the bees by you were "imported" due to them not being native there.
So either end of the spectrum, never import or always import is not the Hill to die on IMO.

seems research is showing traits are "additive" so if the trait you want is slow perking to the surface, Importing it may be very advantageous.

By importation you trying to fix a feature A (because all everyone cares for is the A).
BUT - all the while you screw the features X, Y, Z and more.

IF traits are additive how did you screw with X,Y,Z by making it X,Y,Z,A?

your issue is not too many VSH bees being imported, So why the resistance. Since all the bees were at one point imported.

 

[crofter]

That some of the best brains in the world are still arguing about the relative importance of so many variables and their short and long term implications suggests that there is no one correct answer. We can construct or imagine scenarios ( local conditions) that seem to support the truth of such constructs but other combinations contradict their supposed truths. Overlooked factors are pointed out that could have influenced others truths. Local conditions appear to be highly influential; can we realistically expect honeybees writ large to adapt to such diverse requirements?

It seems to me that the most we can ask for is a heightened tolerance to varroa. One gained without losing other present or future coping mechanisms. Are we asking too much of the organism? Would granting man's every wish be curse or kindness?

Reminds me of the parable of the Chameleon lizard that changes color to match the background but gave up in despair when dropped down upon one of the highland tartans!

 

[A Novice]

Tom Glenn was espousing this point over 20 years ago now - he's proved quite prescient on a good many things regarding resistance breeding:

So resistance, to the extent it exists, will follow a Gaussian ("normal") distribution. This is true of any quantity which results from many independent factors. The general shape of the curve begins to emerge with 3 factors.

In that regard it would be similar to height or intelligence or the sphericity of bearing balls.


It doesn't make selecting for resistance impossible. It just makes it a slow process that is prone to error and forever unstable without adequate isolation.

It also makes selecting for it prone to confounding.

I kind of thought this was obvious.

It is the reason preservation of genetic diversity is so important. The gene you want may be in a bee that has no other good traits. If you lose that bee you lose that gene. And it is unlikely you will ever get it back.

And since none of these genes by themselves confer a practically significant level of resistance you may need a bee with 10 or 30 of the right genes to see a measurable difference.

That is what makes BOND less likely to work. That is how I see it anyway.

 

[drummerboy]

I have been ranting about the importance of localization for long enough.
The L-word has been missing from the US talks all along.
Not understood.
Not cared for.
Prevented by various actions and inactions.

You do realize the Mountain is very, very steep, doncha? How many ppl do you think you reach here on BS?

You're fighting alone (quietly along with many others, also alone) against corporatisim and profit for the few bee-herders running tens of thousands of hives, when what's needed is improved education and better organization by the masses of small beekeepers, who greatly out number the commercials.

Good Luck...create a group, organization or movement...I think you already know I'll be an early supporter.

 

[drummerboy]

Could be.

However - for a fact some bees shut down earlier but others brood on.

That fact alone creates issues.
Locally out-of-season brooding creates issues (as trivial as the need for constant mite treatment).

Hmmm-maybe it's the treatments???

 

[GregB]

@GregB
well to be fair all the bees by you were "imported" due to them not being native there.
So either end of the spectrum, never import or always import is not the Hill to die on IMO.

And right there you cut away what I said in the same post:

..........Import the trait once (pretty much have to in the absence of the native pops). ..............

If quote - then quote the entire context when it is relevant.

 

[GregB]

You do realize the Mountain is very, very steep, doncha? How many ppl do you think you reach here on BS?

You're fighting alone (quietly along with many others, also alone) against corporatisim and profit for the few bee-herders running tens of thousands of hives, when what's needed is improved education and better organization by the masses of small beekeepers, who greatly out number the commercials.

Good Luck...create a group, organization or movement...I think you already know I'll be an early supporter.

For this we have the very "Dane County Beekeepers Association".
These people are all around me and we physically interface.

 

[drummerboy]

And right there you cut away what I said in the same post:

..........Import the trait once (pretty much have to in the absence of the native pops). ..............

If quote - then quote the entire context when it is relevant.

Wow! Do you bother to read what you're responding to and how your own response may effect others?

"STOP expecting YOU from other people"

 

[drummerboy]

For this we have the very "Dane County Beekeepers Association".
These people are all around me and we physically interface.

I feel your pain...seriously.

 

[Gray Goose]

And right there you cut away what I said in the same post:

..........Import the trait once (pretty much have to in the absence of the native pops). ..............

If quote - then quote the entire context when it is relevant.

once twice 5 times.
IF you wish to bring in the trait, then you import till it s there.

1 and done is not likely to be as successful as import several times.

And when Bees came to your neck of the world,,, were they VSH bees?

are are the "meat" bees being imported by the 100's every year?

it wasn't relevant.

Just trying to help carry on

GG

 

[GregB]

IF traits are additive how did you screw with X,Y,Z by making it X,Y,Z,A?

Because I could import VSH bees from this ad:

https://www.beesource.com/threads/vsh-italians-carniolans-for-sale.377196/?post_id=2038333#post-2038333

I say if you are in WI - do NOT import this material.
(I did not say this is bad material - I do say this material will likely bring along other traits we do not need up here).

By doing so you screw up the XYZ - for the sake of adding the A.
I don't care if they labeled "Carniolan".
Commercial labels don't matter.
But actually proven localized material does matter.

Seek out some localized providers from the zones 4 and 5 - they very well may have the entire set of X,Y,Z and A already.
@Michael Palmer is very much a good, desirable source for the potential WI bees due to closely matching environments.
Really, why import FL material when there is just as good a material in VT, proven too.

BUT - one must understand the difference and care about it.
Most (?) people don't.

 

[GregB]

once twice 5 times.

OK to be fair - bees from VT that already have been going thru localization for 20(?) years can be re-imported multiple times in to similar WI setting.
It makes sense.
It makes no sense to argue against such case.

But people re-import bees from TX.
What is the point of this one?
What are they thinking?
But this is the reality.

 

[drummerboy]

Thinking is missing from the process my friend....

 

[Gray Goose]

I have brought Russians in every 4-6 years for almost 20 years.
The traits I like seem to fade away, However this last time it took longer, considering a few swarms escaped, maybe the local is shifting.

 

[Gray Goose]

But people re-import bees from TX.
What is the point of this one?
What are they thinking?

try not to presume they know what you and I know.

first time, first bees, likely price and availability drive the decision.
who has them sooner the south.......

 

[GregB]

can we realistically expect honeybees writ large to adapt to such diverse requirements?

Keep in mind, all the adaptations are already in place - 100 years can NOT wipe out 1,000,00 years of pre-exisiting evolution.
The already embedded adaptive traits just need to be applied properly.

Keep the northern-trending bees where they belong.
Keep the southern-trending bees where they belong.
Keep the desert bees where they belong.

 

[A Novice]

However...

If for some reason I need new bees, I will try and trap swarms. Most likely not more than one generation away from imported bees.

If that isn't likely to be sufficient I will buy package bees from California. I have had good success with those. The last time I did that was 2023. That queen is still going strong, and so are her daughters. 2 years is pretty good for a queen here. Most are superceded or swarm at about 1 year old.

I hear the localization idea, but I am very skeptical. When I first heard about "meat bees" it made sense to me. But having watched it for a couple of years I am mostly convinced that "meat bees" is an indication of sick bees trying to stay alive by making new bees. The bees are no different.

Reading Seeley's experiment with small hives pretty much convinced me. Of 24 colonies of California Italians with locally adapted mites and viruses in an isolated setting, not more than 2 were 'meat bees".

And colonies of "meat bees" appear to dwindle while continuing to brood. Colonies of honey bees shrink less without adding bees.

So I have tentatively concluded that localization is irrelevant. It might make sense in Europe where bees are native and have had a long time to adapt to the local climate and forage.

My California "carniolans" have shown more visible VSH behavior than any of the other bees I have had. Bees are getting better. Selection is happening.

My current thinking is that localization is only effective in random non-native areas if it results in less agessive mites and less virulent viruses.

 

[crofter]

Thinking is missing from the process my friend....

Keep in mind, all the adaptations are already in place - 100 years can NOT wipe out 1,000,00 years of pre-exisiting evolution.
The already embedded adaptive traits just need to be applied properly.

Keep the northern-trending bees where they belong.
Keep the southern-trending bees where they belong.
Keep the desert bees where they belong.

Your broad statement seems to support that every bee contains all the adaptations of previous milliions of years; that if needed may be recovered from stored data.
That may or may not be true in the population at large but when you narrow the field you potentially leave behind something previously (and possibly in the future) valuable. Best be darned sure you maintain the whole! Data decays or can be lost entirely.

I sense lots of circular reasoning and wishfull thinking (is that synonymous with dreaming) and lucid dreaming! That last one is tricky and the owner does not properly identify it!

 

[GregB]

That is what makes BOND less likely to work.

BOND with consistent survival near zero is waste of time - one can never create anything from dead bees.
BOND with consistent survival about 20% is a workable case however (but must be done on scale, not 5 hives).

Like I have been ranting for about 5 years now - first, do your own feasibility study and see what is your own BOND survival rate?
Establish that # - then go from there.

This simple, stupid test needs to be done.
Until then - there is nothing to argue about and nothing to preach about.