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....but 5 treatments in a row........ 5 treatments in a row 2 or 3 times. At some point there is an impact
Exactly.
While spinach/chard and the like contain OA amounts to not be concerned about, brood comb honey/perga after who knows how much OA inputs are of questionable food value if not outright toxic.

So it turns out I harvest exactly that for food - brood comb honey and perga.
OA just does not belong there in my beekeeping model.

Well, looks like from above, no one is even concerned about OA accumulations in perga (especially perga for sale).
 

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Sorta makes you wonder about RO and shop towels. Keeping OA in the hive over an extended period of time.... with supers on.
Most treatments of OA take place after the honey is harvested, so no real issue.
 

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Most treatments of OA take place after the honey is harvested, so no real issue.
Bingo, and that is what the research shows. The people hear "OA doesn't get in honey" miss the "when used as directed by the label" part and think its open season and people advocate brood on, super on courses of 4 and 5 treatments

The shop towel study should be enlightening when its fnished
 

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Sorta makes you wonder about RO and shop towels. Keeping OA in the hive over an extended period of time.... with supers on.
Most treatments of OA take place after the honey is harvested, so no real issue.
I just now realized - you are advertising OA vaporizers in your signature.
http://OxaVap.com Your source for the ProVap 110
OA Vaporizer. The fastest vaporizer on the market!
Well...... hehehe.
This would not be admissible in the court. :)
 

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he has long proven to be a stand up guy, and has helped a lot of people he didn't need to
 

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Discussion Starter #28
GWW and others. Yes, I have read the studies you refer to. I was confused about them and asked a friend with a chemistry background to help me understand them. We concluded that the tests did not answer the question about how much residual OA can be expected in the honey treating with OAV like how I treat them and how I would like to treat them (supers on). Thus my curiosity about testing my honey. J
 

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Discussion Starter #29
The cost isn't unreasonable; even a not-for-profit entity (e.g. university) wouldn't be able to do it for a whole lot less. Gas chromatography-mass spectometry is most likely the method that would be used, and since you're looking to detect something that is in (hopefully) trace amounts, this method gets pricey. Extremely high purity gasses and solvents are needed, as is a high-purity analytical standard for oxalic acid (which is needed so that they can identify the OA in the sample and quantify it accurately).

As an example, OA at sufficiently high purity (analytical standard purity) for GC/MS is ~$700/gram! Unless the lab was testing for OA frequently, they would have to purchase this.

Similarly, partial purification of OA from the honey would likely have to be performed first, in order to get it into a suitable solvent. Again, unless the company has done OA from honey before, they'd have to generate and validate that method.

It gets cheaper for subsequent samples because some of those costs are 1-time expenses (validation of the extraction process), while analytical standards are used in small amounts and therefore a little goes a long way.
Yes, you are absolutely correct. The chemist explained this to me and they would have to purchase equipment. Another member here Pmed me that the price was cheap.
 

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I might just send some honey off to one of my best friends who happens to run the food/feed/fertilizer lab for our state. If he agrees to do the testing that is. I use OAV treatments but not when supers are on. At that time I don't think it is legal in Michigan. I might ask some of the BK phd.'s at MSU about the issue.
 

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I talked to my friend today. He said that the state does not test for oxalic acid in food. They just defer to FDA standards as far as allowable amounts.
 

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So looking around a little got me to somewhat of an answer. The issue is that use of OA treatments require an FDA approval. That requires funding and testing and it simply hasn't been done. There is a deferral to stated allowable levels in food, but it isn't something regularly tested in many states. So it seems that bee researchers defer to federal standards because there is a stated standard, but it hasn't necessarily been studied exhaustively. Also I expect there is some fear that treatments wouldn't be easy to regulate.

Not that I have total confidence in the FDA. Standards get changed over time because new information refutes previously held positions. It's the same old problem were money influences policy.

Sublimation into a hive coats bees and the acid re-crystallizes on them. I hardly think a cardboard insert would do much to keep it out of the honey supers unless it is left in there for a day or 2. That could easily cause other problems if the bees had no place to put nectar except for maybe in the brood nest?

Personally, I will do what seems reasonable to me. When I get to the place where I begin to sell honey then I may have to cave to the grey area standard, unless it is carefully defined by then.

Possibly a talk with my house representative might move the testing ball forward. In the end I expect that the allowable limit will be moved upwards. I think we could live with a rule that allows one cycle of treatments when the supers are on, at a certain dosage.
 

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Like most acids Oxalic acid is pretty tart. Grab a handful of sheep sorrel or some shamrocks or a piece of rhubarb stalk. take a bite that is the flavor of Oxalic acid. If there were any appreciable increase in the OA content of honey I would believe you should be able to taste it. That's my opinion, and worth every penny you paid for it.

Also, since no one can patent OA and has much opportunity to get rich from its sale, there is no one motivated to pay for all the testing necessary to determine its safety to use with supers in place. Again, just an opinion. everyone's got one..
 

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"Grab a handful of sheep sorrel or some shamrocks or a piece of rhubarb stalk."

Been nibbling on them for years. The tartness help me eat some frog legs on a 3 day survival test years ago. :D Added some dew berries and served up sweet and sour frog legs. Helped cover up the swamp flavor of the dang frogs.
 

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The USDA submitted the request for OA treatment of bees / mites to the EPA who approved it based on a Canadian approval under a fast-track process during the Obama administration. You ae right, there was no profit incentive and a supplier volunteered to offer it up for sale as a distributor. They have since gone out of business. Million of pounds ( a lot is made) of OA are manufactured yearly in the USA and used in farming.

Most of Europe has an acceptance based on total acidity of the honey. The testing issue is related to "half-life" which is rather short for OA. Non-profit European studies are available - we are falling behind while focusing on money. Tidbit: OA is critical to the human digestive system the final part.

I have no issue, anymore, with the EPA application requirements. I do not treat in the Spring or Summer as my OAV winter treatment works wonders. I remove my supers in the early Fall leaving my winter brood chamber configuration. Post removal, the bees get the final Fall foraging and move on to robbing - that's when I treat with OAV, and often, approximately 13,500 Dead Drop Count last year for 8 foraging hives.

My two cents, all this is from memory and subject to correction, for what it's worth
 
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