Beesource Beekeeping Forums banner

1 - 11 of 11 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
47 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
TBH: when I remove a filled bar (honey) located somewhere in the middle of the hive, should I insert the new/empty bar in its place, or should I move forward the other bars, like a file cabinet kind of thing, and put the new/empty bar as the last one in the end? So far, I have been simply replacing the removed one with the new one, but I have been reading to insert it at the end instead. What do you do, and why? Thank you for your responses and help!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,578 Posts
TBH: when I remove a filled bar (honey) located somewhere in the middle of the hive, should I insert the new/empty bar in its place, or should I move forward the other bars, like a file cabinet kind of thing, and put the new/empty bar as the last one in the end? So far, I have been simply replacing the removed one with the new one, but I have been reading to insert it at the end instead. What do you do, and why? Thank you for your responses and help!
Of course "it depends".
What are trying to achieve?

To capture as much of the flow as possible?
Then replace the bar in the honey area.

To expand the brood?
Then replace the bar into the brood nest.

Good compromise - insert right between the brood nest and the honey.
Let them decide how to use the bar.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
184 Posts
Related question: Generally speaking should you try to avoid having a full comb of capped honey as the first bar after the broodnest?
 

·
Super Moderator
Aylett, VA 10-frame double deep Langstroth
Joined
·
6,578 Posts
Kevin, I am not using TBH's but the concept is the same when growing a nuc into a 10 frame box. Also assuming you are expanding the broodnest or working on getting more drawn comb. The honey should be one or two frames (bars) from the active broodnest. I keep moving the honey frame(s) as the hive expands until it is in the #1 or #10 position in a Lang. Hmm. Sounds like the title of a book, "Who Moved My Honey?"
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,325 Posts
Good compromise - insert right between the brood nest and the honey. Let them decide how to use the bar.
Good thinking ...

Related question: Generally speaking should you try to avoid having a full comb of capped honey as the first bar after the broodnest?
Yes. More detailed answer follows ...

I am not using TBH's but the concept is the same when growing a nuc into a 10 frame box. Also assuming you are expanding the broodnest or working on getting more drawn comb.
I keep moving the honey frame(s) as the hive expands until it is in the #1 or #10 position in a Lang.
With a Lang nuc there isn't the same problem which later develops within a Long Hive (TBH or otherwise). Yes - the bees want honey and pollen right next to their brood nest - and that's the exact cause of a problem which then later develops ... because such a comb/frame in that position then acts as a barrier to laying, and thus defines/fixes the ultimate size of the brood nest. That's what the whole OSBN concept (which used to be called "brood nest spreading" back in the 1860-70's) is based on.

All Horizontal Hives (except one) have a basic flaw in their construction - which is something I'm currently involved in developing a solution to - and can most easily be demonstrated by a 'mind experiment':
It's often said that a vertical beehive is more appropriate to the behaviour of the honey-bee than a horizontal hive - and this is usually put down to it being 'vertical'. But I would offer a different explanation ...

So - in your mind's eye - look at a classic vertical stack of boxes: say a Langstroth stack or a Warre stack (it makes no difference) with the frames within those boxes facing you 'side-on' (as opposed to 'end-on'). Ok - now rotate that stack down onto the ground, such that it becomes a horizontal hive: exactly the same beehive, only now in the horizontal format.

Now - take a look at those frames (or combs) through what has become the top of the hive (conveniently transparent - such is the nature of mind experiments :) ). You will notice that the frames/combs all run along the length of the stack of boxes, NOT across it's width. And THAT is the fundamental flaw which all horizontal hives have, with the singular exception (afaik) of the Die Bienenkiste Hive, which is based on the fixed-comb long hives of Anton Janscha from 18th Century Europe. It is by stringing frames/combs across the short dimension of a beehive - rather than along it's length (which is more-or-less how the bees would draw them if given a free rein to choose) that a situation is created which then requires beekeeper management, such as opening-up the brood nest to stop swarming which is such a frequent consequence of 'leave-alone' horizontal hive beekeeping.

I'm suggesting then, that it's both the barrier to brood-nest enlargement and the inferior traffic-flow of the horizontal hive which are the reasons why vertical hives present as superior performers, and not because they are vertical, per se.

Hope this explanation helps.
LJ
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,578 Posts
I'm suggesting then, that it's both the barrier to brood-nest enlargement and the inferior traffic-flow of the horizontal hive which are the reasons why vertical hives present as superior performers, and not because they are vertical, per se.

Hope this explanation helps.
LJ
Agreed LJ.

Large-frame based long hives somewhat mitigate this fundamental issue - hence I like such hives.
Small/shallow frame based (TBH included) hives fully demonstrate the issue - hence I dislike such hives.

But that is the nature of the beast - a long hive.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,578 Posts
Related question: Generally speaking should you try to avoid having a full comb of capped honey as the first bar after the broodnest?
I would agree in general.
I would rather have an open bar or unused comb in this position at all times if I can do so (so that give the bees options if I can).
Let the bees decided where to truncate the brood nest (not do it for them).
With TBH the limited volume/small girth is the #1 ongoing issue.

With my long hive it is less of an issue due to large volume, but still.
 

·
Registered
5 ,8 ,10 frame, and long Lang
Joined
·
2,239 Posts
Sylvia,
If you have a few bars you could move the whole hive down 1 or 2 bars and place empties at each end.
They could then simultaneously expand the brood nest and add to the honey stores.
Even 3 at each end. then the guessing of what do they really need is not an issue.
I do Lang hives, and have seen this time of year, with a good queen the bees can double from 10 frames to 20 in a month or so.
So until end of july try to keep ahead of them, To Me 1 bar at a time is playing with bees, I would do 2 or 3 and go in less often. (when I super, I add 10 at a time, whole box)
Just a opinion tossed on the heap of opinions. Keep in mind 1 frame/bar of brood hatching can cover 2 additional frames.
So in 21 days, 3 weeks, all the brood in your hive has hatched, so if you have 5 bars of brood today, you should have 15 bars of bees in 21 days.
Of course some of the older bees will die and a few are lost to predators but , but this way you have an idea, of what to expect.

GG
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,776 Posts
if possibly you always want to place the empty between 2 well drawn combs to act as guides, strait comb leads to strate comb

My preference is to place it in the brood nest so they draw worker cells and help prevent swarming often done 2 bars at a time with a drawn betwen them . this way combs are moved front to back and the older combs get harvested keeping fresh new wax in the the brood nest. it also doesn't hurt to have a few layers of cocoons in the wax to reinforce it when it gets loaded with honey.

If you have 2nd year hive you can set up a situation were last years small brood nest isn't nearly big enuff.. and it looks like they have space to expand, but its honey/drone combs and they swarm becuse there is no were to lay workers.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,578 Posts
My preference is to place it in the brood nest so they draw worker cells........
This is what I do primarily.
However, about 10-20% of the comb on each frame still ends up drone cell.
Getting brood raised in the free comb does reinforce the comb, which is essential for those practicing natural comb.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
47 Posts
Discussion Starter #11
Thank you all for the helpful explanations, teachings, and replies

Sylvia
 
1 - 11 of 11 Posts
Top