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Aylett, VA 10-frame double deep Langstroth
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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
This color pattern showed up in my yard this year. My bees have for the past two years been clearly identifiable as predominantly A.m.Carnica. Is this what A.m.Ligustica can look like? The pictures on Wiki show a more pronounced stripe.

20190715_202648.jpg

Sorry for the crappy photo I thought I had it more centered when I took it. Note the almost lack of stripe over most of the abdomen and then the black butt.
 

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I think your hive might have CPV and that is causing certain coloration, not enough detail from the one pic to know for sure though.
 

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Aylett, VA 10-frame double deep Langstroth
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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Have not noticed any obvious issues with the 20 some hives here, and I am in each hive about every two weeks. A few more often as I am making nucs. I will keep an eye out for other signs, but mite load is very light right now. I have noticed that my once jet black drones are showing hints of yellow in them too. Figured I have picked up some other genetics along the way.
 

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So some of your bees are more yellow than before? If so, it would not be CPV, which if anything causes a blackening of affected bees.
 

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it the US color would be poor indicator or genetics

too many years of open mated mutts selected for color and traits

if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck and fills the nitch sure. but it may be an ugly gosling
The eastern coyote is a great example... wolf/dog/coyote hybrid.. western coyote 62%, western wolf 14%, eastern wolf13%, and domestic dog 11% . filled the eastern wolf nitch the extermination left.
kills deer, moose, people..... without extreme scrutiny... "wolf", yet its only 13% dna of what used to be there.
most of this happened after we stopped bringing "pure" bee stock... and they mate 1-1, and we don't ship them all over the county , every year
and then there is genetic recombination, haploid males, etc
in the US, "races" of bees are stereotypes, not gentic "breeds " with few exceptions
 

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That picture could easily have been taken within my yard ...

I have a few hives of pure (ex Slovenia) and F1 Carnies, where ginger/orange banding is completely absent, and a few hives of 'believed-to-be' Buckfast - which is a part-Italian hybrid, of course - where black and ivory banding is absent. But the vast majority of colonies here are mutts, with a mix of both colours - just as in that photo.
LJ
 

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For my interest, could i see a pic or two of some more of these black bees with no bands?

Thanks :)
 

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With all the genes that the queen carries, then mix in the genes that 15 drones carry is like trying to breed a alley cat to produce certain color offspring lol.
I’ve been amazed for years at the diversity of markings that my mutts produce, everything from solid black to orange w/ almost a tan striping.
 

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This color pattern showed up in my yard this year.....
I would not worry of any "viruses".
:)

This is indeed the coloration you get when lots of imported package bees get dumped into your area - those Italian/Iberian drones are in the air diluting the locally surviving stock.
I have them too and not happy about it.
 

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Aylett, VA 10-frame double deep Langstroth
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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
I'll try to get some better pictures. But the bees are getting yellower in color in some of the hives. All my bees originated from just two queen lines and most are from a swarm colony I caught three springs years ago and have been aggressively splitting. Might be time to order in a few queens to use as breeders for next year.
 

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5 ,8 ,10 frame, and long Lang
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I'll try to get some better pictures. But the bees are getting yellower in color in some of the hives. All my bees originated from just two queen lines and most are from a swarm colony I caught three springs years ago and have been aggressively splitting. Might be time to order in a few queens to use as breeders for next year.
each split breeds in the local drones so a few of those could have impacted what you now have.
 

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I'll try to get some better pictures. But the bees are getting yellower in color in some of the hives. All my bees originated from just two queen lines and most are from a swarm colony I caught three springs years ago and have been aggressively splitting. Might be time to order in a few queens to use as breeders for next year.
That....
OR - let few units die off over the winter.
Seriously.
Time to start weeding out the package genetics as an ongoing management (else you don't know which of your bees are still worth keeping and which have been taken over by the "Borg"). The Borg will take over since the "resistance is futile" - unless you kill them Borg back (fire by fire).
You don't know which of your queens have been assimilated and are really spreading the Borg anymore.

If anything, I'd prefer fetching a couple of mutt/feral/TF queens from the BS folks.
 

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I'll try to get some better pictures. But the bees are getting yellower in color in some of the hives. All my bees originated from just two queen lines and most are from a swarm colony I caught three springs years ago and have been aggressively splitting. Might be time to order in a few queens to use as breeders for next year.
JWP I may be missing something but what difference would the "coloring" matter? I tend to look at Survivability and how much they produce. Then are they mean. I have never really understood what the color matters. Can you offer what the colors would mean, Some of my caught swarms have several variants, I presumed was due to the different drones mating with the queen. I guess I am ignorant as to the color and what that would indicate. I'm clear on what dead in the spring means.
GG
 

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JWP I may be missing something but what difference would the "coloring" matter? I tend to look at Survivability and how much they produce. Then are they mean. I have never really understood what the color matters. Can you offer what the colors would mean, Some of my caught swarms have several variants, I presumed was due to the different drones mating with the queen. I guess I am ignorant as to the color and what that would indicate. I'm clear on what dead in the spring means.
GG
Well, the visual phenotypes did matter - before and in the Old World (for as long as the distinct subspecies were geographically separate).
There and then the visual of a bee was a reliable identification of a bee subspecies and the expected traits.

Now and here we are observing active processes of hybridization - right in front of us.
So the visual phenotypes are less important IF at all.

Now days we just follow the historic conventions - maybe these should be just dumped already, for all practical reasons.
At least one should be aware of the situation that the visuals, as it stands now, are not reliable predictors of anything.
 

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Aylett, VA 10-frame double deep Langstroth
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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Really I was just curious as to which sub species typically showed this particular coloration. As of now, all my queens are still black or dark red, characteristic of the Caucasian and Carniolian lines. If Italian or something else is drifting in, I may not want to rear queens from those hives. This will be the first winter for the yellower bees. Will see how they fare compared to the other hives.
 

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Colouration matters for those who breed specific sub-species of bee: those people who are trying to preserve particular behavioural characteristics - some of which vary significantly. It can also matter for those beekeepers who wish to keep bees of a specific type.

Some examples:




In the above example (at left) there is even a 'hint' of brown in the topmost segment - in a really good 'breeder-quality' queen, even this is absent.
From: http://apis-mellifera-carnica.eu/en/basic-selection-criteria-apis-m-carnica/


In the world of the Italian Bee there is one bee - the Cordovan, which could be thought of as an albino - being a uniform golden colour. Because this colour is genetically determined, it can therefore be used as a marker for 'genetic purity' - with any trace of another colour indicating less than 100% 'pure'.

Apart from these two examples of the old-world Carniolan and the Cordovan bees, colour would appear to be less useful as a genetic indicator.
LJ
 

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JW:

This is a great post. I've learned a lot reading the responses. Thanks for posting.

FWIW- the coloring/banding combination you posted a photo of is fairly common in the current colonies here in my yard, but there seems to be no discernable prevalent color/banding pattern among my current locally-caught stock, be it queen, worker or drone.

More telling to me, I see a range of color and banding among workers within the same colony which I have always taken to mean a wide range of drone inputs- but this is a bald guess on my part.
 
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