Beesource Beekeeping Forums banner

1 - 20 of 99 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
203 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Please read what happened to this person when he put his bees in small cell foundations.

http://bwrangler.wordpress.com/small-cell-experience/

I believe people lose bees because they place them in small cells not knowing what will happen.

I’m interested in nailing down why people lose hives, was it diseases and pests or factory foundation cell size or some of all. There is a cause for CCD, I want to find out what it is. It looks like most people don’t really know why they lose hives but there is a reason for CCD.So I would like those of you who lost hives to answer all questions, please.

What breed of bees did you have you lost, are they yellow looking bees or are they black looking bees ? Here are links you can look at pictures of different bees to know what breed you have.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Maltese_honey_bee.JPG

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_dark_bee

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carniolan_honey_bee

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Buckfast_bee.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_bee

Do you know the signs of diseases and pests ?

Were your bees heavily infested with diseases or pests ? What kind ?

Did your bees draw (make)their own foundations and comb for the brood ?

Were there ants in your hive ?

Did they die during the winter ?

Were the hives strong 50-60 thousand bees ?

Did they have a lot of store for the winter ?

How long did you have the hive before you lost it ?

If it was Italian bees you lost,did you put small cell foundations in the hive ?

Please read this.


http://www.bushfarms.com/bees.htm
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfoundationless.htm
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesferal.htm
 

·
Vendor
Local feral survivors in eight frame medium boxes.
Joined
·
54,120 Posts
>Please read what happened to this person when he put his bees in small cell foundations.

I know Dennis and have read it many times.

>I believe people lose bees because they place them in small cells not knowing what will happen.

No. In my opinion, they were losing them because the method recommended by Dee and Ed Lusby was to do shakedowns of all of their colonies. This was very stressful. I have no had such losses and know of no one who has unless they were doing complete shakedowns. A shakedown is when you shake all the bees into a hive with nothing but small cell foundation.

>I’m interested in nailing down why people lose hives, was it diseases and pests or factory foundation cell size or some of all.

Stress from shakedowns, IMO.

>There is a cause for CCD, I want to find out what it is.

Not having it at all, makes it difficult for me to have too many theories, but here is mine. The things that changed just before CCD hit are that the commercial operators started using Tylosin instead of Terramycin, which killed off all the beneficial bacteria that had built up a resistance to the Terramycin. They also went crazy with the fumidil (because of the Nosema Cerana) which killed off all the beneficial yeast. They also started using formic acid for Varroa which killed off any microorganisms that the previous two did not. The bees cannot digest pollen. They can digest bee bread. Bee bread is pollen that has gone through a two stage fermentation process that involves many microorganisms. After that the shell on the pollen grains is gone and the bees can digest it. So perhaps the bees are starving from lack of protein.

>It looks like most people don’t really know why they lose hives but there is a reason for CCD.

Sure there is. They are not finding it because they are looking to find some microorganism. They are not looking for what is missing.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,309 Posts
I read the article you referred to, and his own summation is that bees on small cells outperformed larger cell bees. The problem was getting there. And so he sought a way to get there, without the losses during regression. Thus he went "Natural." Seems like that's what many of us are doing as we go foundationless.
Regards,
Steven
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
203 Posts
Discussion Starter · #4 ·
>Please read what happened to this person when he put his bees in small cell foundations.

I know Dennis and have read it many times.

>I believe people lose bees because they place them in small cells not knowing what will happen.

No. In my opinion, they were losing them because the method recommended by Dee and Ed Lusby was to do shakedowns of all of their colonies. This was very stressful. I have no had such losses and know of no one who has unless they were doing complete shakedowns. A shakedown is when you shake all the bees into a hive with nothing but small cell foundation.

When a person buys a package of bees or makes a split and puts them in a hive with all small cell foundations is a shakedown or the same as a shakedown ,right ? That is what a lot of people do not knowing. That's what i'm saying.

>I’m interested in nailing down why people lose hives, was it diseases and pests or factory foundation cell size or some of all.

Stress from shakedowns, IMO.

>There is a cause for CCD, I want to find out what it is.

Not having it at all, makes it difficult for me to have too many theories, but here is mine. The things that changed just before CCD hit are that the commercial operators started using Tylosin instead of Terramycin, which killed off all the beneficial bacteria that had built up a resistance to the Terramycin. They also went crazy with the fumidil (because of the Nosema Cerana) which killed off all the beneficial yeast. They also started using formic acid for Varroa which killed off any microorganisms that the previous two did not. The bees cannot digest pollen. They can digest bee bread. Bee bread is pollen that has gone through a two stage fermentation process that involves many microorganisms. After that the shell on the pollen grains is gone and the bees can digest it. So perhaps the bees are starving from lack of protein.

I believe there are many reasons why people lose hives,but I believe the # 1 reason is shakedown as you call it. We need to let the bees build their own foundations and comb.

>It looks like most people don’t really know why they lose hives but there is a reason for CCD.

Sure there is. They are not finding it because they are looking to find some microorganism. They are not looking for what is missing.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
203 Posts
Discussion Starter · #5 ·
I read the article you referred to, and his own summation is that bees on small cells outperformed larger cell bees. The problem was getting there. And so he sought a way to get there, without the losses during regression. Thus he went "Natural." Seems like that's what many of us are doing as we go foundationless.
Regards,
Steven
Yes we must go natural and let the bees make their own foundations but many people don't know that and they keep on selling factory foundations to people. Many old bee keepers don't know this i guess and the new ones don't,so they make the biggest mistake to start with. Old and new bee keepers making the same big mistake,making splits and buying packages and puting them in hives with small cell foundations.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
12,000 Posts
I don't know whether to close this thread or delete it. It's going nowhere fast. :scratch:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
203 Posts
Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Another sad product of our educational system here in Texas...
Not only in Texas but around the world. The really sad thing is, the factory makes small cell foundations and the supply places sell them and people buy them and kill their whole bee hives not knowing.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,827 Posts
As a non supporter of the whole small cell thing.....even I'm having trouble getting my mind around this thread.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,532 Posts
C I B,
Are you onto the cause of our CCD problems? If so I am safe then cuz I don't use small cell.:rolleyes:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,242 Posts
Isn't the reason for small cell is that that the varroa mite won't lay in it? I read an article in one of the bee mgazines that covered research done on the use of small cell for this. There was no differience in the amount of mites. Rendering the small cell useless. Wish I could remember what it was in. I'm getting old and having senior moments. But the facts are right.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
203 Posts
Discussion Starter · #14 ·
C I B,
Are you onto the cause of our CCD problems? If so I am safe then cuz I don't use small cell.:rolleyes:
I believe the CCD problems are pest control treatments and trying to put all size bees on one size cell foundation. There are different breed of bees and different size bees. You can't put all size of bees on one same size cell foundations. Same as you can't put drones or queens in worker cells. Bees need to draw all their own cells and foundations so they can grow to the natural size. Restricting their growing will deform them. That's why i ask what breed of bees are people losing. It makes them weak the same as pest treatments do.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
203 Posts
Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Isn't the reason for small cell is that that the varroa mite won't lay in it? I read an article in one of the bee mgazines that covered research done on the use of small cell for this. There was no differience in the amount of mites. Rendering the small cell useless. Wish I could remember what it was in. I'm getting old and having senior moments. But the facts are right.
That's what many people say and what I believe. There was no differience in the amount of mites. Rendering the small cell useless.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,430 Posts
um, barry?? you have to delete this thing....its just nonsense.
How are people going to learn if they don't ask questions and give their opinions/thoughts.

Will say this. I put 2 packages on totally HSC last spring. Eventually lost both hives no matter what I did. It wasn't until later in the summer that I found out that HSC (brood/tall) frames are small cell. Did that cause the problems. I think so because I couldn't get the queens to lay or stay. Even when I replaced a few of the HSC with wax foundation.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,827 Posts
I think so because I couldn't get the queens to lay
This was one of the problems I encountered when I attempted to 'regress' some hives a few years ago. As I migrated from 5.1 to 4.9 some of my queens would absolutely refuse to lay in the 4.9. I moved those queens to hives with conventional foundation and they filled frame after frame with beautiful brood.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
134 Posts
Jennifer Berry has done small cell experiments at the University of Georgia where she is a member of the entomology department run by Dr. Delaplane. You can probably google Jennifer Berry + small cell and find her publications. Her conclusion was that small cell had no effect on the mite population. All evidence that I am aware of supporting the effectiveness of small cell is anecdotal.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,309 Posts
If folks are serious about putting their bees on small cell, you simply MUST read the related materials. You cannot just put bees on small cell, they must be regressed... it occurs in stages.

I don't have a dog in this fight. I'm on regular foundation, and going foundationless. I'm not going to go small cell. If the bees do, that's fine with me. But when we try anything, there are certain protocols to follow, discovered and shared by those who have already made the mistakes. They have learned from their mistakes, and seek to share their knowledge with us. To ignore that information is simply to make the same mistakes, and wonder why something didn't work.

Now, regarding different size cells in the hives. Research shows the bees build what they need. Worker size for workers, drone size for drones, and large cells for honey/nectar storage. They have a reason for doing what they do. I don't understand their reasoning all the time, but I don't have to. All I have to do is pay attention to them, and allow the bees to be bees. I can minimize the drone cell population of the hive, but the little darlings will always build what they need.

Does small cell work? Many have demonstrated so. But there IS NO SHORTCUT! The bees have to be regressed. It occurs in stages. You can't do it all at once. So please! for your sake, if you go this route, do the reading, and learn how to regress in stages. Then you won't blame the bees, or the purveyors of small cell foundation for your haste and errors. :lookout:
Regards,
Steven
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
203 Posts
Discussion Starter · #20 ·
How are people going to learn if they don't ask questions and give their opinions/thoughts.

Will say this. I put 2 packages on totally HSC last spring. Eventually lost both hives no matter what I did. It wasn't until later in the summer that I found out that HSC (brood/tall) frames are small cell. Did that cause the problems. I think so because I couldn't get the queens to lay or stay. Even when I replaced a few of the HSC with wax foundation.
Were they an Italian breed ?
 
1 - 20 of 99 Posts
Top