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Discussion Starter #1
I was bummed today to see a few drone pupae removed from one of my stronger hives with deformed wing. I treated all hives about a month ago with Formic Pro, so it's disappointing to see DFW now. I will not do sugar roll or alcohol wash at this time, because robbing pressure is very high. We're in a drought and I'm seeing bees checking all around the hives, up top at the vents, etc., for ways to get in. So, lacking a mite test, would anyone here go with a second treatment of Formic Pro? Or a series of OAV (there's still a lot of capped brood.)
 

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I'm a new beek this year so take this with a grain of salt-I had some good mentors both here on the forum and from our local bee club. I did the two strip formic pro treatment on Aug 30th due to seeing DFW on a few workers emerging on the landing board. To be honest, it scared me that something wrong could happen and I'd loose the hive just as the much needed winter bees were being laid. Initially, there were quite a few dead larvae and pupae and even more infected workers getting dragged out of the hive. As time pasted, things straighten out and right now, the hives are looking pretty good. I did recently see dead drone pupae being brought out a few days ago but I think that's less the PA and more of the seasonal culling of drone. You may have just seen an under-developed pupae. In a hive, you don't work, you don't eat. I was pretty much convinced that the drone had all been evicted by now but during an inspection a half an hour ago, I just saw a few more live drones getting pushed out the door by some girls. I think as new bees, we over think a lot of this stuff-patience's matters.
 

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Keep in mind that no treatment will kill 100 percent, and formic is killing the mites, not the virus itself. How old do you think the pupa was? I would hope it would clear in another week or two, but I would do an oav and see what your drop is and go from there. J
 

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Formic kills mites, so do the other varroa treatment products, but not viruses.
I'm not surprised you still see some virus damaged bees, particularly drones after a high mite infection.

I'd do a second treatment without a mite count but not with Formic pro.
Depending upon my available time either OAV series or apivar (a amitraz product).
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Clyde good point about the viruses not being targeted by the treatment. The state apiarist mentioned a while back that it only takes one mite to bring a virus into the hive. I still don't understand how you get rid of the viruses. Maybe a healthyhive just does enough hygienic practice until the viruses have a minimal effect.

I'd been doing sugar rolls upt to the Formic Pro treatment and had almost no mites showing up, but treated anyway, just as a seasonal necessity. And this hive was the result of a Snelgrove manipulation, so they had a brood break while raising their own queen this summer. So go figure - there shouldn't be any mite overload.

I'll do a series of OAV treatments, I guess. Calls into question whether the other hives in the yard might need some treatment. Arrgh!
 

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Good plan a series of OAV treatments.
My practice is to treat all in the yard if I treated one, and use the same treatment.

Not the time to play around- late summer early fall-, in fact many times it's wise to aggressively eliminate those that have little chance to survive winter instead of
trying to nursing them as the effort rarely pays off.
Bear in mind I am not referring to your current situation when I say eliminate now.
 

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The formic pro label authorizes the use of back-to-back treatments with formic pro if there is a high mite count following the first treatment. You need to do an alcohol wash to determine mite load accurately. The advantage of formic right now is that it will give you a quick knock down of varroa, needed for those winter bees to get going. A follow up with Apivar is probably called for in mid to late Oct to give you 2 months of slow kill of mites that should set you up nicely for the winter.
 

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Up here in NY, it's probably too late. I went through a bunch of hives today and the queens are shutting down. My seconds and thirds are just about full of honey. In the bottom box 2-3 frames might have softball size larva and eggs and lots of nector. Fair amount of brood is hatching out and no eggs, so my winter bees are in place. Just seems early and I'm glad I treated early.
Hopefully you are in a warmer climate and you can get the treatments in in time.
 

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Wings are developed just before new bee emergence so all pupae have what appear to be shriveled wings.
I think this may be worth considering if you are only seeing the wing problem on the chucked out pupae as mentioned in the original post and not on the emerged ones.

The OAV treatments and view the mite drop would be good idea. You may be getting a lot of mites from neighbor bees.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Crofter, you might be onto something! Very good point!! It didn't occur to me, but their wings would be shriveled just like those of butterflies and moths on emergence, which need some time to expand as the insect pumps hemolymph into them. So with bees, this process happens just before they emerge?
 

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Credits to Jack! Crawling bees with the shriveled wings or ones climbing blades of grass and falling off has usually been my first tip off of virus.
 
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