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Discussion Starter #1
My state (along with others I assume) require honey to be sold by weight. They also require all weighting devices are NTEP certified. http://agr.wa.gov/Inspection/WeightsMeasures/is_your_device_legal.aspx

You can still charge what ever you want for a jar but the weight must be on the jar and you must not be under that weight.

With that said what have you all been using for a scale and why? Are you just guessing the weight? Or are you under labeling the weight on one.. IE saying a pint jar weights 22 Oz and not 24 Oz?

Regardless of how I label them I still have to have a NTEP certified scale just in case big brother wants to pick on me. It only takes one bad apple to complain and my world is in a world of hurt for a short time.
 

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I don't live in Washington anymore:), but if you want to spend some money on a useful tool, buy a refractometer, not a scale. That will allow you to determine the water percentage in your honey. With that, you could be confident that a given volume of honey will weigh what you expect it to weigh.



This WA Dept of Ag document on selling honey direct to the consumer in a "raw" form list very few regulations:
http://agr.wa.gov/marketing/smallfarm/DOCS/3-SellingHoney.pdf
whereas if you "process" the honey then you will have more rules to meet.
 

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NW,
I use standard honey jars and don't weigh any of them. Probably gave away a lot of honey over the years.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
I don't live in Washington anymore:), but if you want to spend some money on a useful tool, buy a refractometer, not a scale. That will allow you to determine the water percentage in your honey. With that, you could be confident that a given volume of honey will weigh what you expect it to weigh.



This WA Dept of Ag document on selling honey direct to the consumer in a "raw" form list very few regulations:
http://agr.wa.gov/marketing/smallfarm/DOCS/3-SellingHoney.pdf
whereas if you "process" the honey then you will have more rules to meet.
Yes you are correct that the state have few regulations on selling honey but you still must have the net weight on the container along with the grade (that's a joke of a rule as there is no honey grade police in the state). That's why the scale. So if I use a refractor can you tell me where the fill line is on a pint mason jar. I have not been able to find the fill line on any bottle yet. So a scale makes it way much simpler and I would have to prove to the state that a refractor is able to be certified as a weighting device. And yes I know what one is (reef tank). Its a great tool for SG but makes it a little hard to weight something when you have no idea where the fill line is.
 

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Yes you are correct that the state have few regulations on selling honey but you still must have the net weight on the container along with the grade (that's a joke of a rule as there is no honey grade police in the state). That's why the scale. So if I use a refractor can you tell me where the fill line is on a pint mason jar. I have not been able to find the fill line on any bottle yet. So a scale makes it way much simpler and I would have to prove to the state that a refractor is able to be certified as a weighting device. And yes I know what one is (reef tank). Its a great tool for SG but makes it a little hard to weight something when you have no idea where the fill line is.

Lets say you are using a pint mason jar. No there is no fill line for honey. You got your certified scale, then you zero it out with an empty jar on it.
Next you add your pound of honey. While it sits there on the scale, take a wooden ruler and measure how high it is in jar and mark every jar with a small dot from a sharpie. That being said, a refractometer is still needed if your worried about the honey cops, as higher moisture is going to be a different level.
 

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You can use water to find the 'fill line' for any given container. An accurate measuring cup will tell you how much water, and if you know the percentage of water in your honey (with a refractometer) then you can convert the water volume/weight to a honey weight with a bit of math. You can use a scale, but as long as you can figure out the water content, honey volume is just as accurate.


The weight printed on your label does not have to be dead on accurate, you just need to be sure that the honey in the jar is not less than the label. You don't need to have a fancy certified scale to do that.

.
 

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On what level are you selling this honey? Can't you just do something silly like saying "1 gram" That way it's obvious to the consumer they're getting more than that and you don't have to weigh it.

Put another way, I may check the weight of one bottle vs another at the grocery store, but at a farmers market, i'm not comparing unit prices, I'm buying the one that looks the best form the guy I like the most.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
You can use water to find the 'fill line' for any given container. An accurate measuring cup will tell you how much water, and if you know the percentage of water in your honey (with a refractometer) then you can convert the water volume/weight to a honey weight with a bit of math. You can use a scale, but as long as you can figure out the water content, honey volume is just as accurate.


The weight printed on your label does not have to be dead on accurate, you just need to be sure that the honey in the jar is not less than the label. You don't need to have a fancy certified scale to do that.

.

If you read the state code anybody that is selling anything by the weight must meet the State's NTEP requirements. Yes you way works but........


Lets say you are using a pint mason jar. No there is no fill line for honey. You got your certified scale, then you zero it out with an empty jar on it.
Next you add your pound of honey. While it sits there on the scale, take a wooden ruler and measure how high it is in jar and mark every jar with a small dot from a sharpie. That being said, a refractometer is still needed if your worried about the honey cops, as higher moisture is going to be a different level.
Sorry but I am a stickler to the minor details. Call it OCD if you want ( I hate myself for the problem) but your example still uses a scale to find the fill line. Daa (sorry). And yes the fill line could change for the water content of the honey.

So let me use this as an example ( I am not doing this at all). You have your labels printed up with all of the State required information. Lets say you put on the label that the net weight is one pound. As in you example you fill one jar up on a scale with a net weight of 1 lb. Mark it and fill all the others to the same line. Great that works for all the honey out of one bulk ( 5 gallon bucket) container. You go to the next bulk container and yes, you use a refactor and the water content is different. So where is the fill line now? with out using a scale to get to the one pound net.

I understand the need of using the refractor but using a scale is so much simpler. Is not like I am going to weight every bottle that is filled but I will have a base line to make sure all are fill to at least the same level in the container.

And again the state requires that a scale be used not a refractor. I have a $150 Salinity refractor ( for SG) that I use on a weekly basis. So yes I know the need for one and how to use it. And a NTEP scale is about the same price


On what level are you selling this honey? Can't you just do something silly like saying "1 gram" That way it's obvious to the consumer they're getting more than that and you don't have to weigh it.

Put another way, I may check the weight of one bottle vs another at the grocery store, but at a farmers market, i'm not comparing unit prices, I'm buying the one that looks the best form the guy I like the most.
I come from a family with a few lawyers. I think that might answer your question. But I think I missed out on the right genes. And I agree with you that most are not comparing unit price but the deeper I dig in to the State laws/code the more I see that people are living on the outer edge of the law if not over it.


I think I should have never asked this question now. Hit me on the head with that stick please
 

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Discussion Starter #10
How much does it weigh if you just fill the 1# jar?,,,,,,,,,,Pete
Depends on water percentage

13% water 12.06 lbs per gal (aprox)
14-- 12.02
15 -- 11.97
17 -- 11.88
21-- 11.64

So where is the fill line on a 1 lb jar and with a know fill line depending on water percentage 15 1/2 oz to 16 oz. so do you label it at 1 lb or 15 oz
 

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most containers sizes are marked by the weight they hold, assuming your honey is dryed to std moisture, approximately 12lbs/gallon. No need to weigh them all, weigh 1 or 2 bottles to determine target fill level and go from there.
 

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If you sell containers with 16.05 oz or 16.1 oz or 16.2 oz of honey (or even 17 oz of honey) that are labeled as 16 oz of honey you are in full compliance with the law. No certified scale required.

Just build the slight 'overfill' amount into your price for that size container. What's the problem?
 

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Lets say you are using a pint mason jar. No there is no fill line for honey. You got your certified scale, then you zero it out with an empty jar on it.
Next you add your pound of honey. While it sits there on the scale, take a wooden ruler and measure how high it is in jar and mark every jar with a small dot from a sharpie. That being said, a refractometer is still needed if your worried about the honey cops, as higher moisture is going to be a different level.
And if you don't fill the jar leaving any visible air space some customers will feel cheated.

Are you all writing the exact weight on each label by hand?

Who can tell me the difference in weight in a specific volume of honey between 16.5% moisture content honey and 18.5% moisture content honey? I bet it isn't 2% different. And if it is, is it significant? In a pint jar? Or a one pound honey jar?
 

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If you read the state code anybody that is selling anything by the weight must meet the State's NTEP requirements. Yes you way works but........




Sorry but I am a stickler to the minor details. Call it OCD if you want ( I hate myself for the problem) but your example still uses a scale to find the fill line. Daa (sorry). And yes the fill line could change for the water content of the honey.

So let me use this as an example ( I am not doing this at all). You have your labels printed up with all of the State required information. Lets say you put on the label that the net weight is one pound. As in you example you fill one jar up on a scale with a net weight of 1 lb. Mark it and fill all the others to the same line. Great that works for all the honey out of one bulk ( 5 gallon bucket) container. You go to the next bulk container and yes, you use a refactor and the water content is different. So where is the fill line now? with out using a scale to get to the one pound net.

I understand the need of using the refractor but using a scale is so much simpler. Is not like I am going to weight every bottle that is filled but I will have a base line to make sure all are fill to at least the same level in the container.

And again the state requires that a scale be used not a refractor. I have a $150 Salinity refractor ( for SG) that I use on a weekly basis. So yes I know the need for one and how to use it. And a NTEP scale is about the same price




I come from a family with a few lawyers. I think that might answer your question. But I think I missed out on the right genes. And I agree with you that most are not comparing unit price but the deeper I dig in to the State laws/code the more I see that people are living on the outer edge of the law if not over it.


I think I should have never asked this question now. Hit me on the head with that stick please
What the heck is a refractor? If you are referring to a refractometer , spell it out. Please. I shorthand terms like u and r all of the time but some words shouldn't be abbreviated like y'all have been. Is a refractor something u refract w/?
 

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Depends on water percentage

13% water 12.06 lbs per gal (aprox)
14-- 12.02
15 -- 11.97
17 -- 11.88
21-- 11.64

So where is the fill line on a 1 lb jar and with a know fill line depending on water percentage 15 1/2 oz to 16 oz. so do you label it at 1 lb or 15 oz
Just beingf a stickler myself, it ain't water percentage, it's moisture content.

Are you saying that honey which has a moisture content of 13% (which technecoly isn't honey by the way) will weigh 12.06 lbs per gallon? And honey w/ a higher moisture content will weigh less by volume?
 

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If you buy containers marketed for honey and fill them to where the cap covers the top of the fill level, you will be slightly overweight. Unless what you're worrying about is not charging for the overage. I can picture that conversation. "How much is your honey?" "Well, that jar is $7.00, and that one is $7.03, and that one is $7.01."
 

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I don't know the moisture content of my honey. All I know is it is capped before I extract it and none of it has ever accidentally fermented.

I also don't know the exact weight of the honey I have sold since I haven't weighed any of them. I have used a traditional 1 lb honey jar and a pint mason jar. I fill them up and label them as either 1 lb or 1 1/2 lbs. Both are overfilled.

I'm sure I haven't cheated anyone or broken the law.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
If you sell containers with 16.05 oz or 16.1 oz or 16.2 oz of honey (or even 17 oz of honey) that are labeled as 16 oz of honey you are in full compliance with the law. No certified scale required.

Just build the slight 'overfill' amount into your price for that size container. What's the problem?
Rader.. You obviously know the Washington laws inside and out. Even better then the State. If you would spend a little time , do a little more research you would learn a few new thing. If you want all the links I will be more then pleased to send them to you. (Then why would the state make you put a weight on a bottle?) Take the steps to apply for a business license. Hum... selling something by weight... Hum... must deal with the state Weight and Measure department


What the heck is a refractor? If you are referring to a refractometer , spell it out. Please. I shorthand terms like u and r all of the time but some words shouldn't be abbreviated like y'all have been. Is a refractor something u refract w/?

Sorry Sqkcrk (Mark) I forget that you are the grammar/spelling police on this site. I will make sure I live up to your rules from now on. We don’t live in the same world as you. And please note that I also said that I missed out on the genes... . Please forgive me
 

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NW_Mark, I lived in Washington state for 17 years, owned a business, held various business licenses and dealt with the WA Department of Revenue, Labor and Industries, and a variety of other agencies.

Put slightly more product in the jar than what the label says, and price the jar accordingly. You [presumably] are selling a relatively small quantity of "raw" honey (not "processed" food) direct to consumers, not to retailers. (If you are packing honey on a large scale, and wholesaling to retailers then you may need to follow a more precise regimen.)


Or you can buy a 'certified' scale, pay the money each period to have it checked/recertified, and stop obsessing over this issue. :) Your choice!
 

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Discussion Starter #20
Just beingf a stickler myself, it ain't water percentage, it's moisture content.

Are you saying that honey which has a moisture content of 13% (which technecoly isn't honey by the way) will weigh 12.06 lbs per gallon? And honey w/ a higher moisture content will weigh less by volume?
Water content or moisture content is the quantity of water contained in a material, such as soil (called soil moisture), rock, ceramics, fruit, or wood. Water content is used in a wide range of scientific and technical areas, and is expressed as a ratio, which can range from 0 (completely dry) to the value of the materials' porosity at saturation. It can be given on a volumetric or mass (gravimetric) basis.


Density

Another physical characteristic of practical importance is density. Honey density, expressed as specific gravity in Table 2.4, is greater than water density, but it also depends on the water content of the honey (Table 2.4). Because of the variation in density it is sometimes possible to observe distinct stratification of honey in large storage tanks. The high water content (less dense) honey settles above the denser, drier honey. Such inconvenient separation can be avoided by more thorough mixing.

Table 2.4:
True specific gravity of honeys with different water content (White, 1975a).


Water
content(%) --- Specific gravity at 20°C

13.0 --- 1.4457
14.0 --- 1.4404
15.0 --- 1.4350
16.0 --- 1.4295
17.0 --- 1.4237
18.0 --- 1.4171
19.0 --- 1.4101
20.0 --- 1.4027
21.0 --- 1.3950



http://www.gordonengland.co.uk/conversion/density.htm then use this site
 
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