Beesource Beekeeping Forums banner

1 - 14 of 14 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,208 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I have 2 nucs that are Queenless. I gave them eggs,larva, brood about 3 weeks ago but no Queen cell seen. I thought one may have had one but when I checked the frame the end was open and the tip of a large larva was present...that was 3 weeks after giving the brood frame so am not certain what it was. There is no evidence of eggs or new brood in either hive so am certain they were Queenless when eggs were introduced.
I have given them each another frame of mainly eggs and and capped brood. Some eggs may have hatched but if so they were very tiny larvae as I couldn't tell...still looked like dry cells with eggs.
Thanks to the previous frame of brood there are reasonable numbers of bees in these nucs. Not over flowing but frames are covered. They have nectar,pollen,honey, a hive top syrup feeder and a protein patty.

Should I just leave them totally undisturbed except for filling the feeder for 3 weeks or check sooner? I worry I may have knocked a good Queen cell against an adjacent comb when I removed the frame to check. I have no idea if the tip of that cell was open due to my damage or something else. To be honest I have never knowingly seen a Queen cell but the damaged cell looked bigger than a drone cell, was not goblet shaped like a Queen cup, was oblong, pointed downward and had a fleshy white thing in it. It was not huge like the pictures people post of "good" grafted Queen cells.

Thanks
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,919 Posts
...I have never knowingly seen a Queen cell but the damaged cell looked bigger than a drone cell, was not goblet shaped like a Queen cup, was oblong, pointed downward and had a fleshy white thing in it. It was not huge like the pictures people post of "good" grafted Queen cells.

Thanks
I think you have yourself an emergency queen cell there that hasn't been capped. That is where they take a worker egg/cell and extend it downward. The goblet shaped cells you are referring to is a queen cup and that happens when the bees plan to make a new queen and the existing queen can still lay eggs in those cups. Wait a few more days and the queen cell should be capped, or wait a couple weeks and it will have hatched and a new queen will be running around the hive.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,208 Posts
Discussion Starter · #3 ·
That would be sooo nice.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,148 Posts
Nope, don't wait. you have capped queen cells ready to be hatched or removed in 10 days. Waiting longer just leaves them queenless longer. Look for queencells, if there aren't any, add a frame of eggs and larve. Wait a week, look for queen cells. When you see queen cells, you will know them, and there won't be just one. They stick out of the comb like a small finger point down. It has to be capped on the end to be a live cell after a week. They do vary in size and what you saw may have been a damaged queen cell. Also, bees break them down, first queens out chews holes in the others and workers then break them down. Check every week and you'll always catch them before they hatch. Remove old cells so when you look next week, you know right away they are new.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,208 Posts
Discussion Starter · #5 ·
So should I wait the 10 days to make certain they are capped or check sooner?
Is there much/any risk of the wax at the tip of the Queen cell being stuck to the comb opposite so the Queen cell gets torn when you pull out the frame to check it.

Also as I had only added the egg frame once before I saw the open tipped cell with a fleshy white larvae where would that have come from 3 weeks after adding eggs unless it was a drone larvae as they take longer.

Why would they not have made Queen cells from the first frame of eggs and larvae? Are nucs too small to raise Queens?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,919 Posts
Nope, don't wait. you have capped queen cells ready to be hatched or removed in 10 days. Waiting longer just leaves them queenless longer.
Did I misunderstand the original post? I thought the nucs were queenless and they were trying to raise queens in the nuc, for the nuc and only one queen cell has been spotted.

WBVC, would it be possible that the nucs have a virgin or unmated queen running around in them? You didn't mention how the nucs came into being. I know I struggled with my hive in early March trying to get a fertile queen in there when a drone laying queen was present. (she hatched in Feb and never got mated, but the bees were quite attached to her.)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,208 Posts
Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Did I misunderstand the original post? I thought the nucs were queenless and they were trying to raise queens in the nuc, for the nuc and only one queen cell has been spotted.

WBVC, would it be possible that the nucs have a virgin or unmated queen running around in them? You didn't mention how the nucs came into being. I know I struggled with my hive in early March trying to get a fertile queen in there when a drone laying queen was present. (she hatched in Feb and never got mated, but the bees were quite attached to her.)
Both nucs are Queenless...I made the nucs in hopes of them raising their own Queen....perhaps foolish from the start:(
One nuc had nothing that looked like any resemblance of what I thought a QC should look like. The second nuc had one cell..larger than the average drone cell and angled down. When I drew out the frame about 3 weeks after making up the nuc the tip of the cell was open with a very ragged edge and the very tip of a white larvae sticking out...looked like a pointed tip not a blunt head. I put the frame back in. When I went back in 3 days later I no longer noticed that cell. I gave them each a new frame with eggs.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,148 Posts
So should I wait the 10 days to make certain they are capped or check sooner?
Is there much/any risk of the wax at the tip of the Queen cell being stuck to the comb opposite so the Queen cell gets torn when you pull out the frame to check it.

Also as I had only added the egg frame once before I saw the open tipped cell with a fleshy white larvae where would that have come from 3 weeks after adding eggs unless it was a drone larvae as they take longer.

Why would they not have made Queen cells from the first frame of eggs and larvae? Are nucs too small to raise Queens?

There may not have been suitablely aged larve for them to make queens with. You can look after 7 days, 10 days is the last day you can find them before they hatch and it's the best day to move them if that is what you are planning. The rule is, make them queenless, 10 days later move the cells and they will hatch on the 11th or 12th day.

3 weeks after adding eggs, the larve was NO QUEEN. They take 3 day old larve for queen cells and they hatch in 12 to 13 days. Total time to hatch a queen from an egg to queen is 16 days.

look on Mr. Bush's site and read bee math and raising a few good queens. Awesome stuff.
 

·
Registered
35
Joined
·
2,084 Posts
Do you have drones? Our colonies just recently started drone brood, not emerged yet. Without mature drones around, queen cells won't do any good. We had originally planned to try a round of queens this week, but I've postponed 3 weeks due to lack of drones. Awfully late this year, last year I was catching swarms first week of may.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,208 Posts
Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Do you have drones? Our colonies just recently started drone brood, not emerged yet. Without mature drones around, queen cells won't do any good. We had originally planned to try a round of queens this week, but I've postponed 3 weeks due to lack of drones. Awfully late this year, last year I was catching swarms first week of may.
I have had a lot of drones for a while now...4 weeks before setting up the nucs.
Question: I know both times I moved eggs, I did not notice any large plump larval cells but the frames did have emerging brood. I made the assumption that some of the eggs may have hatched and if not then they would hatch in a day or so. Was that incorrect assumption when switching a frame into a new hive.
I have read Michael Bush's bee math and the Queen rearing calendar. I have a problem with the calendar as it starts with graft day but when you move a frame with eggs rather than a graft I am not certain which day to assign as "graft" day...is it the day you move the eggs or a couple of days later?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,208 Posts
Discussion Starter · #13 ·
If the tip of the cell was ragged, a queen hatched out. I do walk away nucs all the time w/o issue.
The Queen could not have hatched out as the cell was full..I assumed the tip of the cell tore open when I removed the frame..if she hatched it should be open. In retrospect I think I damaged a lone drone cell.
 

·
Vendor
Local feral survivors in eight frame medium boxes.
Joined
·
54,120 Posts
>I have read Michael Bush's bee math and the Queen rearing calendar. I have a problem with the calendar as it starts with graft day but when you move a frame with eggs rather than a graft I am not certain which day to assign as "graft" day...is it the day you move the eggs or a couple of days later?

When you give them young larvae to start with or you make them queenless (and they start with young larvae) you put them on day 4. They will start with a four day old larvae (from when it was laid). This is the same math as when you graft. 10 days after you graft (or give them larvae or make them queenless) you would put the cells in nucs if you want extra queens. This is two days before they emerge. 12 days after you graft (or give them larvae or make them queenless) the queen will emerge. 14 days after that (26 days after you gave them the larvae) I would expect her to be laying. A week after that is the outside for her to be laying (33 days after you gave them the larvae).
 
1 - 14 of 14 Posts
Top