1 - 12 of 12 Posts

#### AlanInNJ

·
##### Registered
Joined
·
187 Posts
Discussion Starter · ·
I've read many different scenarios, wondering what you guys think.

Walkaway split, new colony has a frame with three swarm cells on it. Added a couple frames of eggs, brood, and stores. Even split. How long until I should expect the a queenright colony? How long should I wait before worrying?

Second scenario, colony swarmed, I caught the swarm and installed it in a new box, assuming the original queen from the original colony is in the new box. I found supercedure cells in the original hive. Same questions. How long until the new queen is laying, and when should I worry?

Thanks,

Alan

#### AR Beekeeper

·
##### Registered
Joined
·
3,004 Posts
The virgin emerges from the cell eight days after it is sealed. With good mating weather you can expect eggs in 10 to 14 days after she emerges.

#### Gray Goose

·
##### Registered
5 ,8 ,10 frame, and long Lang
Joined
·
5,065 Posts
I've read many different scenarios, wondering what you guys think.

Walkaway split, new colony has a frame with three swarm cells on it. Added a couple frames of eggs, brood, and stores. Even split. How long until I should expect the a queenright colony? How long should I wait before worrying?

Second scenario, colony swarmed, I caught the swarm and installed it in a new box, assuming the original queen from the original colony is in the new box. I found supercedure cells in the original hive. Same questions. How long until the new queen is laying, and when should I worry?

Thanks,

Alan
not sure I would worry about either today. However one can always worry if they wish.
how long is a bit of math and a bit of extrapolation.
"queen" cell denoted a sealed cell, IE 8-16 days old, so lets assume 12 +/- 4
Hatches at 16 in 4 days
matures hardens 3 more days
weather permitting, should mate in 3ish more days
laying eggs 3-4 more days.

so 12 +4 +3 +3 +3 28days +/- the 4 so in 24 to 32 days you should have a laying queen.

IMO Second scenario if the hive swarmed the Q cell then would be Swarm cells.
And not sure I would assume, what if the older queen stayed and one of the first hatching "supersedure " queens left with a swarm.
In this senario they start to supersedure, then a few days later decide to swarm, happens

Now if you can pinpoint a more exact age for the queen cells then you could get closer.

the +/- 4 is the swarm can leave when the cell is capped IE 8 days, or the day before hatching IE 15 days, looks the same, so a capped cell can be as old as moments to hatch or moments after capping.

If each "queenless part has 2 or more queen cells, then I am of the opinion worry is a choice. but alas you wanted an answer, so go into the cell splits 30 days from the deed you describe, if you see no eggs, no brood, and no queen, then worry.

Have a great 30 days
GG

#### AlanInNJ

·
##### Registered
Joined
·
187 Posts
Discussion Starter · ·
Thank you both, very helpful. Both of you suggest that its still early for me to be seeing eggs, larva, brood. I figure I have another 10 days. I was just a little concerned after a quick inspection yesterday not finding any of those things.

I'm trying not to worry. There are real world problems to worry about. I am more trying to learn, and frankly sometimes bees can be frustrating when they don't do what I think they should do. But I guess I don't need to tell you guys that.

#### JWPalmer

·
##### Moderator - In Memorium
Aylett, VA 10-frame double deep Langstroth
Joined
·
6,881 Posts
Alan, even the old queen that swarmed will take few days before starting to lay again, assuming she was put on drawn comb. I check a primary swarm in about six days to look for eggs. A secondary swarm queen may take another five or six days, weather permitting. If I do not see eggs after two weeks, I give the bees a frame of brood with eggs and see what they do.

#### Gray Goose

·
##### Registered
5 ,8 ,10 frame, and long Lang
Joined
·
5,065 Posts
Thank you both, very helpful. Both of you suggest that its still early for me to be seeing eggs, larva, brood. I figure I have another 10 days. I was just a little concerned after a quick inspection yesterday not finding any of those things.

I'm trying not to worry. There are real world problems to worry about. I am more trying to learn, and frankly sometimes bees can be frustrating when they don't do what I think they should do. But I guess I don't need to tell you guys that.
So Alan, A friendly message, I am offering as I have made almost every mistake. If you have 10 or so days to go then... 14 days ago you did the splits...
Going in to inspect has Risk every time. The most common error I see is over inspecting. Queens get crushed, rolled, cells get damaged, built onto other stuff, tore open, etc I know you need your bee fix as we all do, but try to avoid going in for no reason and, get out when the reason you went in is Achieved. Example "am I queen right", open hive on frame 2 I see eggs and brood, taking out frame 5 I crush the queen. So really after frame 2 you should have stopped, been there done that. Have an empty box to put the first couple frames in, start from one of the edge, leave the rest in the box, slid over, the queen is mathematically less likely to be on the outside frame. I cringe when I see a center frame pulled, when folks on utube place frames leaning against the hive in the grass etc. Bees fall off combs all the time , perhaps one is the queen, found her on the lid, on the screen, on the bottom board, on my sleeve. I after +40 years of playing with bees was surprised 2 times this year already... Expect the unexpected. go slow, often the plan will change based on what you find. and then you second guess on the way back to the house.

Have fun
GG

#### AlanInNJ

·
##### Registered
Joined
·
187 Posts
Discussion Starter · ·
I'm in this crazy situation with 3 colonies and currently no queens laying. At the beginning of April I had one super strong colony. I split that one 18 days ago, then the big parent hive I split swarmed, and I caught the swarm, so that's in a new hive. I believe (please lord) that I have queens in all three, but none are laying as of yesterday that I saw. I didn't break the hives down fully because I didn't want to disturb the queens who are trying to figure it out. We have not had a good string of nice weather days which I assume is not helping, rain then sun then rain again.

#### AlanInNJ

·
##### Registered
Joined
·
187 Posts
Discussion Starter · ·
GG - thank you so much for that post. You really hit home!!

#### JWPalmer

·
##### Moderator - In Memorium
Aylett, VA 10-frame double deep Langstroth
Joined
·
6,881 Posts
Gray Goose said:
Bees fall off combs all the time , perhaps one is the queen, found her on the lid, on the screen, on the bottom board, on my sleeve.
Pants leg. Been there, done that. Twice.

#### Fivej

·
##### Registered
Joined
·
3,685 Posts
I've said it before, beekeeping is teaching me patience and that if you don't know what to do, do nothing until you find out. J

#### Gray Goose

·
##### Registered
5 ,8 ,10 frame, and long Lang
Joined
·
5,065 Posts
I'm in this crazy situation with 3 colonies and currently no queens laying. At the beginning of April I had one super strong colony. I split that one 18 days ago, then the big parent hive I split swarmed, and I caught the swarm, so that's in a new hive. I believe (please lord) that I have queens in all three, but none are laying as of yesterday that I saw. I didn't break the hives down fully because I didn't want to disturb the queens who are trying to figure it out. We have not had a good string of nice weather days which I assume is not helping, rain then sun then rain again.
ok so the 2 hive with cells with the 24-32 day need,,, should be checked in 6-8 days she should be hatched and maturing/mating at this time.
The Swarm that was caught even with a virgin should have eggs in 12 days. So Split 18 days ago , Then swarmed..... how many days after the split or how many ago did you "hive" the swarm? Add 12 days if no eggs or brood, then decide if you want 3 hives or 2 hives. Combine, or order a queen is an option.

So the swarm hive if it has set for at least 5 day can have a thorough inspection , expect to see eggs and the queen best odds on the center 3 frames. Start from the easiest edge, go slow, look the best you are able. the eggs when hatched look like a wet spot, whitesh, from the larvae food. Sun over your shoulder can help. I would think you see a base ball size circle somewhat centered in the frame, the end 1/4s you do not need to look very hard at. empty frame she seems to like the center.

On the other two If you feel "lucky" and are a careful inspector, go in to verify the queen cells are open, I only offer this for the one scenario where you said there were more than 2 cells, and you caught the swarm. Do the swarm hive first, IF it is completely egg free and you did not see the queen , then it would be a possibility, that you find a cell or 2 open and a cell or 2 still closed in one of the splits. If the swarm is queen right then IMO you stop there.
IF the swarm is not queen rite, you may be able to salvage a last to hatch cell from one of the splits. At 18 days the cells should be hatched, that you SEEN, however there may have been eggs/ larvae in one of the splits that were also made into queen cells starting the "day you split" or "up to 4 days after the swarm out of the parent" ,, on the queen less part. IMO even at 18 day you are 48 hours past the last cell hatching. If the "then the parent swarmed" was 3 or 4 days later, you could have a yet to hatch cell in the "big parent" IE they may have made more cells then the first batch you seen.

1 of 3 perceived queen less and multiple queen cells, in parent could be justification to inspect those 2 for the express reason of resolving queen rite status of the swarm hive, and do the swarm hive first, if Queen rite done, if not attempt to resolve via Cell from another hive.

Note,, a queen cell you need to use should not be shook, A feather works good for a bee remover, have a sharp knife, if in wax cut 3/8 from the cell to reduce risk of cell damage. if in a wire or on wood, you need the whole frame, a bee less frame swap is ok. to put it in, cut a spot away, where the bees cover, stick it on, it only needs to not fall off, it is hollow and easily squashed, as well a strip of comb with cell in center can be squeezed inbetween to frames, perpendicular. I generally move the whole frame, some time you cannot, do insure the queen is not on the frame you move

should be a nice day today

GG

#### AlanInNJ

·
##### Registered
Joined
·
187 Posts
Discussion Starter · ·
Super helpful GG, thanks for taking the time. I need to digest all that info. My brain hurts.

Sunny and 70F here tomorrow, might take a look in hives tomorrow.

1 - 12 of 12 Posts
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.