Search Mel Disselkoen and his notching method to get queen cells started on multiple frames. Its great for producing a fairly small number of queens from a superior queen.What is the easiest way to preserve the genetics of a good colony? I want to preserve the characteristics of this queen.
What your describing is the worst way possible to make queensFind the queen and pull that frame
I am now confused... so what would you suggest to preserve the characteristics of a good colony?What your describing is the worst way possible to make queens
the bees start with larva that is too old
in a normal walk away split they draw a bunch of cells, and the the bees chew down 50%+ of the cells removeing the worst of the bunch, and then most of the time the "best" queen wins...this doesn't happen when your break the cells in to nucs
further more when bees make emergey cells they prefurantuily use larve form drone lines that are not seen in the work force, so in 40% of the queens your not getting the drone side traits that are responabul for that colony's gentinics
Eh ? Sounds ok to me. He does say, " you can tear down any capped queen cells on day four as those are made from larvae that is a bit older than optimum." which should cover the older larvae issue - not that I'm over-impressed with the 'larvae as young as possible' argument, which applies more to a potential queen's subsequent performance, rather than her genetics, which will be the same regardless of larva age.What your describing is the worst way possible to make queens
the bees start with larva that is too old
Don't follow this at all - have you got any links to support this assertion ? 40% sounds like you've read something that I haven't ...further more when bees make emergey cells they prefurantuily use larve form drone lines that are not seen in the work force, so in 40% of the queens your not getting the drone side traits that are responabul for that colony's gentinics
As far as I can find there has only been one study that takes steps to control the age rather then to guesstimate it biased on development time from other studys, Tofilski, Czekońska (2004)and their results say other wisewhich should cover the older larvae issue
The precapping period of queens reared from brood, which was younger at the time of dequeening, tended to be shorter than the precapping period of queens reared from older brood
The total development time of queens reared from brood that was younger at the time of dequeening tended to be shorter than the total development time of queens reared form older brood,
Our data show that both the precapping period and the whole development time of emergency queens increase with the age of brood from which the queens were reared (Fig. 3). Thus, estimations of brood age in emergency queen cells based on time of capping (Winston, 1979; Fell and Morse, 1984; Hatch et al., 1999; Schneider and DeGrandi-Hoffman, 2002) cannot be very accurate. Another source of inaccuracy of estimations is the correlation of the precapping period with the position of the queen cell in the nest (Visscher, 1986; Fell and Morse, 1984; DeGrandi-Hoffman et al., 1993; Hatch et al., 1999)
Don't follow this at all - have you got any links to support this assertion ? 40% sounds like you've read something that I haven't .
Through patriline analysis of colonies along with large numbers of emergency queens reared by each we affirm the purported “royal” patriline theory that, instead of competing nepotistically, workers exhibit bias towards selecting individuals from particular “royal” subfamilies during emergency queen rearing events, Further, we show that these “royal” patrilines are cryptic in honey bee colonies; occurring in such low frequency in the overall colony population that they are frequently undetected in traditional tests of queen mating number and colony composition.
An average of 40.21% of the queens produced per colony were from queen exclusive “cryptic” subfamilies
a poor qualty queen with good gentnics is still a poor queennot that I'm over-impressed with the 'larvae as young as possible' argument, which applies more to a potential queen's subsequent performance, rather than her genetics, which will be the same regardless of larva age.
-Steve Tabor Breeding Super BeesIn the late 30's and early 40's the USDA Bee Culture Lab in Madison, Wisconsin started a program to determine which stocks available from queen breeders were best. Two-pound packages with queens were placed on combs on or about April 15. Brood production, population, and total honey production were monitored carefully. Some of these package colonies barely made winter stores, but a few did pretty well, producing 150 to 250 pounds above winter requirements. But one breeder consistently produced queens that developed colonies producing 250 to 450 pounds of honey over winter requirements.
Madison's Farrar, and other government beemen then spent time visiting and making observations of that particular queen breeder, and methodology developed in his queen-rearing operation. The conclusion was the stock was no better than available anywhere else. That's right! When we reared queens from that stock or from stock obtained from the poorly performing groups, we turned out very high-performance queens. So it wasn't the stock that was good -- it was the queen breeder. What stood out more than anything was his care and selection of each queen cell and queen every step of the way.
The basic information we got from that queen breeder was something we already knew -- to raise superior queens was mostly a matter of creating a superior environment. After all, there is no genetic difference between the workers and the larvae from which you graft your queens. Improve the environment. Improve the environment -- get that imprinted in your queen-rearing method every step of the way. Be sure there are always enough young bees and more than enough pollen and honey available. Always graft more cells than you will use or need so you can select only the best. Also, have more laying queens than you will use, and again -- select only the best.
If starting from a single colony, there is no easy way to preserve the genetic makeup of that colony. It is possible to do so, but it will require a significant effort, and the final result risks arriving at a line that has lost it's vitality due to inbreeding.What is the easiest way to preserve the genetics of a good colony? I want to preserve the characteristics of this queen.
+1Just spotted this:
a poor qualty queen with good gentnics is still a poor queen - "is still a poor performing queen" - but she carries good genetics which can be carried on to the next generation.
HTBFind the queen and pull that frame and two more (one capped brood, one mixed stores) and put in a nuc with 2 frames of built comb if you have it, if not two frames with foundation or foundationless, whatever. The remaining colony will make a bunch of emergency queen cells. If the colony is a single deep you can split the remaining 7 frames two ways once the queen cells are capped, if it's a double deep you might be able to split the remaining 17 frames 5 ways (3 frame splits) if they build queen cells on enough different frames. If you run foundationless you can also cut the queen cells out, depends on how many new colonies you want. I just learned if you want the best queens using this method, you can tear down any capped queen cells on day four as those are made from larvae that is a bit older than optimum.
going back to the example.. we have a poor f-1 and your graft off her, her F-2 daughters work force are f-3s, the genetics are long washed out.but she carries good genetics which can be carried on to the next generation.
Not reallybees actually select-out larva of a particular 'royal patriline', then it automatically follows that ALL methods of queen-rearing which involve ANY element of human selection are flawed.
The cryptic lines seem to be the result of human selection, the mutation causing the larva to be more attractive to workers brought to prelvance by human induced emergy queen rearing that gave them a reproductive advantage not avaibul in natural reproduction, some writers refer to them as parasitic linesNot only A.I., but grafting and it's alternatives such as the Alley and Hopkins methods. It even extends to the Miller method, if one (otherwise bee-selected) q/cell is then selected by the beekeeper.
If you don't teardown queen cells capped by day 4 then you'll need to split them on day 9. A queen hatches 16 days from a laid egg but bees can make queens from any larvae less than 3 days old. On these types of splits where you remove the queen and let the colony build a bunch of emergency queen cells some will be made from 3 day old larvae which is day 6 from an egg, meaning that queen cell will hatch 10 days after you remove the queen, so you split things up on day 9.HTB
How many days is it before I go back to split the emergency queen cells into new nucs?