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Postponed superseedure?

1793 Views 11 Replies 5 Participants Last post by  cristianNiculae
I have a hive that was given a cell, the queen mated and started laying. After a while I found about 10 queen cells. At first I thought they were trying to swarm because of the lack of space for the queen to lay (I use foundationless and lack drawn frames; there were about 8 deep frames of bees) so I used all the queen cells to form new nucs(the resulting queens are fine).
However I checked this hive yesterday and found a nasty laying pattern. It looks like the queen isn't that good.

So my questions:

Was it superseedure? If so why did the bees changed their minds and not try it again?

So far I decided to let it be. See what happens. I don't have an extra mated queen anyway.
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Not always, but sometimes they will swarm for a supercedure, especially if they are in a crowded condition. I agree, with ten cells, it seems like swarm. Maybe you gave them some more space when you removed the queen cells?
I managed to find a drawn frame, yes but I'm not convinced that stopped them making more cells. If you mean space as the overall space they have plenty as they are in a standard deep on 8 frames. The cells were most of all situated on a partial drawn foundationless frame(like the one from Miller method of queen rearing). Anyway it's a poor queen, as I see it. I'll probably buy a mated queen and replace her. I don't have resources to make more queens this season.
>I checked this hive yesterday and found a nasty laying pattern.
got pictures, I suspect you have EFB
Check your other hives, especially the smaller ones. Requeening won't fix EFB.

>After a while I found about 10 queen cells.
A EFB hive may try to replace their queen, swarm ,abscond or they may just stay and dwindle away. They realize there is a problem and they try to fix it.
We had 4 5 frame nucs swarm on us last weekend. complete abandonment of the nucs. not completely sure what that is about just yet. Not a good vote for keeping nucs though.

As far as bees getting brood. You have a hive that is queenless. they remain broodless the entire time it takes a cell to emerge and a queen getting mated. then that queen provides them with what? Now if you had taken a frame of eggs and given to the hive you would have expected to find them making queen cells. but because it is a newly mated queen giving them eggs you expect differently.

With a recently queenless colony that suddenly has a newly mated queen I do not think the queen is capable of laying or producing pheromone enough to prevent the bees from trying to rear a new queen.

Not only that but I have some question about the quality of queen reared under certain conditions. could an emergency queen be just that just enough of a queen to provide the bees with better attempts at making a better queen?

I would not be to quick to judge a newly mated queen. often their patterns are not good. multiple eggs per cell. it takes them a while to kick in. I think it also takes the bees a while to kick into brood rearing again.

I see a situation that looks like this. A hive is queenless. in one way or another they get a new queen. that queen begins to lay. but her presence is not yet enough to suppress the queen rearing urge. so the bees start new queen cells from the first of her brood. This takes a couple of weeks. in the mean time the queen and their brood has become adequate but the bees are committed. The other scenario is that the queen and brood do suppress queen rearing and started cells are aborted.

Anyway by the time a second queen is mated and laying the urge to rear queens has been suppressed by the first queen and no further attempts to replace queens is made.

In all I would have intentionally have done just what you did. I woudl have checked on a recently requeened colony and removed all queen cells. Bees do not replace queens that I chose to give them. Bees may be better at being bees but they suck at making profitable production. In other words they are almost completely incapable of earning and income and that is what I keep bees for. Worst case is I end up with several new colonies and one failed one. Fine by me I sell nucs to make up for the failed colony. My income is secure and that is about all I am really concerned about. One way or another that hive made me money. I am not determined to make that money by any specific means. It can be selling honey, selling nucs or pollination. they all generate the same dollars.
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Some pictures with the frames:

To get the full resolution right click on the picture and press "view original", then zoom in.

However today I've seen the queen and you can also see it in one of the pictures and it's not marked. It either is a new queen or the paint has vanished. I used a marker with permanent paint. It looks really solid to me. I haven't noticed paint gone on other queens but I'll pay more attention to this aspect from now on.

I took the decision on marking the queens as I found it pretty usefull when forming the starter otherwise you may end up with one or more queenless hives and a queenright starter.

So what's your conclusion? Do I have EFB? It looks like the old queen has been superseeded though. I must have skipped a queen cell.
That does not look like EFB.

It looks like you had a very nice brood pattern and allot of the bees hatched out.
I would not call it "nasty laying pattern"

I did not see any open larva. Is that true?

My guess is she is a new queen and will start laying soon. They look a little short on stores I would feed them and start getting them ready for winter.

Keep an eye out for new eggs/larva to make sure she is mated.
That does not look like EFB.
what made you think it was efb in the first place?
"checked this hive yesterday and found a nasty laying pattern"
from first post
Thank you so much.

I still have so much to learn. The queen is mated. I've seen eggs and young larvae.

About feeding: I still want to wait a little bit cause we're having a flow on white clover, yellow cone flower(Rudbeckia lacianata) and other small flowers fields.

This year has been very bad for honey production in Romania because of the weather. We had a mild winter, probably that's the reason. It's good to have well defined seasons, to call winter winter and not autumn, and summer be summer :))).
"checked this hive yesterday and found a nasty laying pattern"
from first post
insufficient evidence to call out efb, it may even be one of the least likely.
Well... just cheked the hive this afternoon and it's nothing wrong with it. However the queens that hatched from those "superseedure" cells are great too.
This is one of the latest nucs made this summer with QC's from this hive:
Bee Honeybee Beehive Insect Apiary
Bee Honeybee Beehive Insect Honeycomb
Bee Honeybee Beehive Honeycomb Insect
Bee Honeybee Beehive Insect Honeycomb

There is a problem with the "permanent" marker... not being so permanent. I've noticed this on other queens too.
Daniel is right about not judging queens so early.
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