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Discussion Starter #4
I'm going to assume you guys are the type that think global warming isn't happening because it snows in the winter where you live. Just because your bees are fine (and I'm glad they are!), doesn't mean everybody's bees are fine.
 

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I think pretty much any product/substance used on bees will kill them if used in excess, including water. Oh and hasn't global warming been going on since the ice age?
 

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I won't disagree that climate change is occurring. I WILL however disagree with the statement that it is man-made AND that there is anything we can possibly do about it.

I'll stick with my own opinion that the bee deaths are due to the combination of stresses on the hives. Pests, diseases, and pesticides all play a role. If the sum total goes above a threshold, the bees may die, may abscond, or may succoumb to any of the other stresses.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
All I'll say is, it would be nice to have a local source of seeds/flowers that are not pretreated with the neonics. Like eating organically, I should have the choice to chose with or without chemicals (and things should be labeled). But when Lowes, Walmart, Home Depot, etc pre-treat most of their stuff, it makes it harder to find chemical free flowers.
 

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I don't think anyone can possibly deny that made-made pesticides, insecticides and any other synthetic chemical used en masse would NOT have some negative impact on the environment, including affecting bees. To declare conclusively that they are the sole cause is not a prudent assumption however ... we will never be able to conclude that definitively.

That being said, I certainly support organic farming and gardening wherever possible!
 

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Chemicals are not good and need to be watched vigilantly. However when you get enflamed by a radical alarmist rag and then attack people that may or may not have swallowed the Global warming kool aid, you kind of slide down the credibility scale given to sober adults commenting on such things.
 

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All I'll say is, it would be nice to have a local source of seeds/flowers that are not pretreated with the neonics. Like eating organically, I should have the choice to chose with or without chemicals (and things should be labeled). But when Lowes, Walmart, Home Depot, etc pre-treat most of their stuff, it makes it harder to find chemical free flowers.
Then perhaps you should have started a thread to that effect or better yet commented on the thread WLC recently started on that very subject. To start a thread with such an alarmist title and to cite as your proof links from the usual suspects doesn't make for rational conversation. Then to "double down" and bring global warming into the conversation doesn't serve to calm things down. . Rweaver pretty much nails it in post #7. As a first year beekeeper you need to understand that bee health is a pretty complex subject.
 

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All I'll say is, it would be nice to have a local source of seeds/flowers that are not pretreated with the neonics. Like eating organically, I should have the choice to chose with or without chemicals (and things should be labeled). But when Lowes, Walmart, Home Depot, etc pre-treat most of their stuff, it makes it harder to find chemical free flowers.
You do have the choice. It sounds like what you want is for the free market to hand you something it isn't especially interested in providing. Why is it up to someone else to make what you want easy? If it is so important, why don't you start providing it for everyone else? Just curious.
 

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'a new study Wednesday by Friends of the Earth Canada'
Are you guys insinuating that a group calling themselves 'Friends of the Earth Canada' isn't an objective organization? :)
 

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Maybe there were "alarmists", shouting their warnings in the streets of Pompeii. Maybe not. There are usually alarmists shouting warnings in most all large cities and in various publications. Odds are, some alarmists and their warnings will eventually prove valid.

History seems to indicate, that some will ignore any and all warnings, no matter the evidence, or veracity of those giving the warning. And those who accept the warnings as valid, generally won't be able to convince those who do not share their opinion, nor make any significant difference in the outcome.

Either way, if neonicotinoid insecticides are the scourge to our environment that "alarmists" portend them to be, or if neonicotinoid insecticides are the salvation of agriculture, our food supply, and ultimately the human race. All of us who survive long enough, will definitely find out for sure.

I'm hoping that neonicotinoid insecticides are as harmless as the manufacturers portend. Since I want most of all, to keep living, eating, and keeping bees.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Then perhaps you should have started a thread to that effect or better yet commented on the thread WLC recently started on that very subject. To start a thread with such an alarmist title and to cite as your proof links from the usual suspects doesn't make for rational conversation. Then to "double down" and bring global warming into the conversation doesn't serve to calm things down. . Rweaver pretty much nails it in post #7. As a first year beekeeper you need to understand that bee health is a pretty complex subject.
Point taken. Apologies.
 

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Point taken. Apologies.
Accepted. Nothing wrong with making it your goal to stay away from pesticides and folks certainly have a right to know what they are buying at the local nursery. Best of luck with your bees. As was pointed out by justusflynns, a possible business opportunity may be waiting the person marketing organic plant stock.
 

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'a new study Wednesday by Friends of the Earth Canada'
Are you guys insinuating that a group calling themselves 'Friends of the Earth Canada' isn't an objective organization? :)
Two sources are given in the story. One is an "international panel of 50 scientists working as the Task Force on Systemic Pesticides," which "says a study of 800 research papers provides conclusive evidence that the pesticides are causing the mass deaths of insects that are essential to the process of pollinating most crops."

The other source is the "Friends of the Earth Canada," which released a study showing "that large numbers of supposedly 'bee-friendly' plants sold at garden centres in 18 cities across Canada and the United States are contaminated with neonic pesticides."

I don't know if anyone claims that "Friends of the Earth" is an objective organization. Obviously, they're an advocacy group. But the question whether plants sold at garden centers are dosed with neonicotinoid pesticides can be answered objectively. Recently Home Depot said they'll label the plants that have neonics, so evidently some plants have been dosed without the labels, and now people will have some choice when they buy plants.

As an urban beekeeper, I'm also concerned by another trend I've noticed recently -- big gallon jugs of pesticides sold to homeowners, each jug with its own spray apparatus, so they can clear all those nasty (!) bugs out of their yards. So if beekeepers who had bees in the almonds had trouble with off-label applications and vat-mixing etc., we're looking at similar disasters for our bees here in urban and suburban areas. And the chemical companies will boost their profit margins for chemicals they can produce and sell by the millions of gallons.

The scientists in the Task Force on Systemic Pesticides have provided a summary of a lot of other studies, and you may dispute the findings.

As long as bees are insects insecticides are going to kill them, if they get a lethal dose.
I think with neonics, the concern is also with sub-lethal doses. And a lot of studies are showing those effects. To me it's pretty clear that sub-lethal effects can have long-term impact. If we were exposed to chemicals that gave us migraine headaches all the time, and messed with our sense of balance whenever we were in the sunshine, say, that might make it pretty hard for us to survive in the longer run. I think it's like with cigarettes. The tobacco companies knew long, long ago about the connection with cancer, but they fought long and hard to milk out as much profit as possible until finally they were forced to accept the truth (and pay a small fraction of their riches as to compensate for the damages). Tobacco didn't kill people right away, so of course it wasn't poisonous. Right?
 

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Justin - there is much alarmist rhetoric out there - most doesn't bear up to scrutiny.

The sky has fallen too often.

Not saying that any pesticides including neonics are good - rather that it is a strategic mistake to focus on one class of pesticide.

No user likes using pesticides - unintended consequences suck. Pesticides are turned to to solve real world economic problems.

Figure out a way to solve the economic problems without pesticides and you'll be very wealthy!
 
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