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Hi
I want to start this year to used Oxalic Acid I have built myself vaporizer
I want to ask when to used it and how frequently
Are you guys using in spring and fall 3 times at 7 days interval???
 

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There is no definitive answer to your question due to regional and other variations. Do a search on "oxalic acid" or "OA Vapor" and you will find many threads on the subject and you can determine your best course of action.
 

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Hi
I want to start this year to used Oxalic Acid I have built myself vaporizer
I want to ask when to used it and how frequently
Are you guys using in spring and fall 3 times at 7 days interval???
Oxalic acid is used for mites correct? I purchased a new hive last week and the breeder told me it's all he uses and it's organic? He told me he just sprinkles it onto the hive not a vaporizer...
 

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Yes, OA is for varroa mites. I would not recommend using nothing but oxalic acid, simply because repeated use of the same pesticide is not proper pesticide practice. I would also not repeat OA treatments over a short interval, on the basis that OA crystals can accumulate and thus become dangerous to the bees if you don't give the bees time to clean it out. Finally, OA is for use only in the absence of capped brood, which is rather limiting. Having a thymol or formic acid alternative would be a good idea, if you want to stay all organic.
 

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Yes, OA is for varroa mites. I would not recommend using nothing but oxalic acid, simply because repeated use of the same pesticide is not proper pesticide practice. I would also not repeat OA treatments over a short interval, on the basis that OA crystals can accumulate and thus become dangerous to the bees if you don't give the bees time to clean it out. Finally, OA is for use only in the absence of capped brood, which is rather limiting. Having a thymol or formic acid alternative would be a good idea, if you want to stay all organic.
Generally I agree with you, but the way OA works to kill the mites is more of a physical thing than a chemical thing. I'm pretty sure it's hard for the mites to become used to having their mouth parts burned off. My understanding is that OA is as near 100% for mites outside of capped cells as you can get, with out burning the hive LOL. Also if used in conjunction with creating a varroa tolerant strain of bees I think it's very useful.
 

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3 instances 1 week apart in the fall after surplus honey has been harvested and right before the cold really sets in. Only with hives that need it.
 

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Finally, OA is for use only in the absence of capped brood, which is rather limiting.
This statement is true for "OA dribble" method. The OP was asking about the Vaporization method which is done 3x each at 7 day intervals to get those mites coming out as the brood hatches.
 

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I just fumigated with OA last weekend when we had several days of mild wheather. There was a lot of bees and a half-frame of open and closed brood. I plan on doing a second treatment in a week or two when the weather is nice again. I also treat in the fall.


I recently found this article regarding the use of OA. It was done on Varroa jacobsoni using the dribble method, but it is a very thorough study. They actually studied the effects on mites, bees, and honey. Looks like they have all the bases covered and the numbers to back it up.

http://www.beekeeping.com/articles/us/spring_treatment_oxalic_acid.htm
 

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Discussion Starter #9
I just fumigated with OA last weekend when we had several days of mild wheather. There was a lot of bees and a half-frame of open and closed brood. I plan on doing a second treatment in a week or two when the weather is nice again. I also treat in the fall.


I recently found this article regarding the use of OA. It was done on Varroa jacobsoni using the dribble method, but it is a very thorough study. They actually studied the effects on mites, bees, and honey. Looks like they have all the bases covered and the numbers to back it up.

http://www.beekeeping.com/articles/us/spring_treatment_oxalic_acid.htm
thank you
 

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I treated in the fall..... 3 treatments a week apart.... First had a huge mite drop... The last hardly had any mite drop at all....
 

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This statement is true for "OA dribble" method. The OP was asking about the Vaporization method which is done 3x each at 7 day intervals to get those mites coming out as the brood hatches.
My vaporizers say nothing of the sort. The guidelines for sublimation are 1g for 1 deep, 2g for double deeps, single use during broodless period. http://www.biovet.ch/en/Imkerei/varrox-vaporizer.html

Who recommends successive sublimations? I have serious doubts about doing that. OA has no reported residual effect, as far as I know. This means that you only kill when you apply, and the OA does no additional kills in the following days. As mites usually remain in the phoretic stage for 4.5 to 11 days (http://entnemdept.ufl.edu/creatures/misc/bees/varroa_mite.htm#life), application at 7 day intervals does not catch all of the mites because a number of them will have the time to emerge and re-enter capped brood cells between treatments. However, you WILL be treating pretty much all of your larvae for 21 days, in other words, exposing them to very low pH conditions.

I cannot imagine this being good for colony health.

Generally I agree with you, but the way OA works to kill the mites is more of a physical thing than a chemical thing. I'm pretty sure it's hard for the mites to become used to having their mouth parts burned off. My understanding is that OA is as near 100% for mites outside of capped cells as you can get, with out burning the hive LOL. Also if used in conjunction with creating a varroa tolerant strain of bees I think it's very useful.
Yes, this I hear often. It is "hard". Note the lack of absolute: it is not "impossible", merely "hard". Every expert I've heard talk of this said the same thing, "it is much harder for a species to adapt to things like pH". However, some species in nature do live in extremely low pH environments. Obviously, some species managed to adapt.

Don't get me wrong, I really like having OA at my disposal. However, we are playing with fire if we start using nothing but OA. People used to say that weeds could never become resistant to glyphosate too, before it actually happened. When you keep applying the same substance, you are putting a selection pressure on the mites for resistance. Then, it's just a matter of time. 5 years? 50 years? 200? years? Who knows. But it'll happen.
 

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Don't get me wrong, I really like having OA at my disposal. However, we are playing with fire if we start using nothing but OA. People used to say that weeds could never become resistant to glyphosate too, before it actually happened. When you keep applying the same substance, you are putting a selection pressure on the mites for resistance. Then, it's just a matter of time. 5 years? 50 years? 200? years? Who knows. But it'll happen.

So are you are saying that if you step on enough mites, someday the mites will become immune to the mechanical action of squishing? Somehow I don't think that is how genetics works.

I also don't think many people used to say that weeds could never become resistant to glyphosate. Weed resistance to 2,4-D and atrazine was documented long before glyphosate was in common use. It is not like weed resistance to herbicides was unknown and magically appeared with the use glyphosate.
 

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Oxalic acid is used for mites correct? I purchased a new hive last week and the breeder told me it's all he uses and it's organic? He told me he just sprinkles it onto the hive not a vaporizer...
For good information on using oxalic acid, go to scientificbeekeeping.com/. This is Randy Oliver's site and contains some of the best oxalic info out there. He tells you pros, cons, and a lot of details about his studies and other people's studies.

The "sprinkling" on the hive is likely the dribble method, which requires some VERY specific amounts to dribble per hive to avoid damaging that hive, as well as only being done at very certain times. Oliver's site includes a lot of information on that delivery system as well.

HTH

Rusty
 

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So are you are saying that if you step on enough mites, someday the mites will become immune to the mechanical action of squishing? Somehow I don't think that is how genetics works.

I also don't think many people used to say that weeds could never become resistant to glyphosate. Weed resistance to 2,4-D and atrazine was documented long before glyphosate was in common use. It is not like weed resistance to herbicides was unknown and magically appeared with the use glyphosate.
You say that as if it were far-fetched... There are a number of bugs that when I step on, they look dead, and then 30 seconds later the buggers start crawling away. Some don't even look dead at all, no matter how hard I try to squish them with my shoe. Does it make them immune to squishing? No, but some bugs certainly are more resistant to squishing than others. Apply enough force, and sure, you can kill any insect. The same can be said about acidity... I'm not talking about breeding a mite that can thrive in 0.1 pH, but rather a mite that survive (not thrive) to a low-enough pH level to make the treatment more harmful to the bees than helpful. Let's not forget that we are dumping acid on bees, here, not in an empty pot containing nothing but mites. The idea is not to prevent immunity, it's to prevent their tolerance from reaching the bees' tolerance.
 

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You say that as if it were far-fetched... There are a number of bugs that when I step on, they look dead, and then 30 seconds later the buggers start crawling away. Some don't even look dead at all, no matter how hard I try to squish them with my shoe. Does it make them immune to squishing? No, but some bugs certainly are more resistant to squishing than others. Apply enough force, and sure, you can kill any insect. The same can be said about acidity... I'm not talking about breeding a mite that can thrive in 0.1 pH, but rather a mite that survive (not thrive) to a low-enough pH level to make the treatment more harmful to the bees than helpful. Let's not forget that we are dumping acid on bees, here, not in an empty pot containing nothing but mites. The idea is not to prevent immunity, it's to prevent their tolerance from reaching the bees' tolerance.
Mechanical action (OA) has nothing to do with how pesticides operate from the standpoint of the development of immunity. Not sure where you are going with pH, but it is a complete drop of context in the discussion. Backing up, changing the subject, and blowing smoke is an obvious attempt at avoid the point that you were trying to make in the first place. Whatever your point was.
 
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