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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Maybe climate?
This study will need to be repeated to check the validity.
I think the best thing is to use other interventions to go along with OAV. I have Apivar on my hives currently and folks say Apivar is not working like it used to work. I may start using Formic Acid in the fall and then use OAV in late December and early January.
 

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Awesome, I think you really have to look at their research, there is no disconnect. Everyone knows that OAV will not treat under the wax capping, in an area where there is no true break in brood rearing this is not surprising. To hold the mites level in such area is very much controlling, they at no point mention creating a break in brood either because this is not what they looking for. If they had created a break in the brood cycle by manipulation the mite load would have dropped. None of these research’s are claiming that OAV is not effective. They are saying in that area of Georgia it is not enough. So you are looking at research that proves just because this works in one area of the US, or what ever country does not mean it will be effective for the whole. Due to the fact that OAV treatment is very much dependent on a break in the brood cycle. Very good video, thank you for posting.
Cody
 

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I think the best thing is to use other interventions to go along with OAV.
I surveyed my local bee club anonymously about oxalic acid use. The response rate wasn't the greatest ( as expected with beekeepers ), but those who used only oxalic acid vaporization on average did it 12 times and had about 50% survival rates.
Those who used oav in conjunction with another treatment, on average did 4 treatments and had 66% survival rates.
 

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I am thinking climate for sure, here I have very good survival rates with OAV. However I can treat in this area when most can’t especially those in northern states, it is also a lot drier in this area at certain key times of year. I would say that the beekeepers in your area probably know what works best in that area.
I surveyed my local bee club anonymously about oxalic acid use. The response rate wasn't the greatest ( as expected with beekeepers ), but those who used only oxalic acid vaporization on average did it 12 times and had about 50% survival rates.
Those who used oav in conjunction with another treatment, on average did 4 treatments and had 66% survival rates.
 

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First of all we need to note that according to the male researcher who ran this mite thing through a computer model came up with a statement that mites would only be phoretic for 4 days and then they go do 7 treatments 5 days appart, no mention on how they treated and the dosage or the purity of the acid. Maybe one of the parrameters in his computer model was that bees lived of the haemolymph of bee, who knows, As for 50% losses for those who treat with OAV well some folks treat with all sorts of stuff and often lose 100% so that tells me nothing. I have been using OAV alone for at least 8 years now with over winter losses below 10% but then I must be lucky or something, it seems the harder I work at it the luckier I get. At present I will treat at least 14 times a year 15 if I can. It startwith 3 weeks of treatment on Mondays and Fridays of each week as soon as my honey is harvested, the same again in late August to make sure that I will have mite free winter bees and then single treatments in November December and again in January if I can find a good day for it. Losses I have are mostly from starvation or queen loss during the winter. For 8 years now experts have been telling me that OAV in bees with brood does not work as OAV only kills phoretic mites, so Apivar only kills phoretic mites, Apiguard as well come to think of it so the only thing that is supposed to kill all mites is Formic acid treatments but I am not so sure about that either and it sure can kill bees and queens from time to time. As to bee clubs, we had quite a large club down here in the Northern neck of which there were a handfull of successful beekeepers most of the rest kept me busy suppling nucs year after year.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
First of all we need to note that according to the male researcher who ran this mite thing through a computer model came up with a statement that mites would only be phoretic for 4 days and then they go do 7 treatments 5 days appart, no mention on how they treated and the dosage or the purity of the acid. Maybe one of the parrameters in his computer model was that bees lived of the haemolymph of bee, who knows, As for 50% losses for those who treat with OAV well some folks treat with all sorts of stuff and often lose 100% so that tells me nothing. I have been using OAV alone for at least 8 years now with over winter losses below 10% but then I must be lucky or something, it seems the harder I work at it the luckier I get. At present I will treat at least 14 times a year 15 if I can. It startwith 3 weeks of treatment on Mondays and Fridays of each week as soon as my honey is harvested, the same again in late August to make sure that I will have mite free winter bees and then single treatments in November December and again in January if I can find a good day for it. Losses I have are mostly from starvation or queen loss during the winter. For 8 years now experts have been telling me that OAV in bees with brood does not work as OAV only kills phoretic mites, so Apivar only kills phoretic mites, Apiguard as well come to think of it so the only thing that is supposed to kill all mites is Formic acid treatments but I am not so sure about that either and it sure can kill bees and queens from time to time. As to bee clubs, we had quite a large club down here in the Northern neck of which there were a handfull of successful beekeepers most of the rest kept me busy suppling nucs year after year.
I think he said he was relying on past information he had picked up when he answered the question about mites moving into brood cells. It was not based on a particular study.
I imagine for the study they used the currently recommended dosage of oxalic acid and most likely used the currently approved brands according to the Department of Agriculture guidelines.
But we have to wait for the study to be published, Jennifer Barry said it was currently be reviewed prior to publication.
 

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Remember, just because the Georgia study did not reduce the mite counts, that does NOT mean oxalic treatments cannot be successful in a IPM strategy. They did not give the study’s details except they used 18g shop towels and use OAV every four days... and did alcohol washes. The devil is in the details.

A report from Florida suggests the best knockdown results for OAV happened when two day intervals were used. More creative research would be useful using two and three day intervals for various lengths of time.

Randy Oliver started with shop towels, but his operation has moved to two 25g Swedish sponges. The Georgia study probably ran for 30 days, but Oliver finds at least 42 days gives better results.

So a single study does not mean oxalic does not work. It worked well in a study from Ontario too, and many others. IMHO it will be one of the main treatments of our future.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Remember, just because the Georgia study did not reduce the mite counts, that does NOT mean oxalic treatments cannot be successful in a IPM strategy. They did not give the study’s details except they used 18g shop towels and use OAV every four days... and did alcohol washes. The devil is in the details.

A report from Florida suggests the best knockdown results for OAV happened when two day intervals were used. More creative research would be useful using two and three day intervals for various lengths of time.

Randy Oliver started with shop towels, but his operation has moved to two 25g Swedish sponges. The Georgia study probably ran for 30 days, but Oliver finds at least 42 days gives better results.

So a single study does not mean oxalic does not work. It worked well in a study from Ontario too, and many others. IMHO it will be one of the main treatments of our future.
It seems to be heavily dependent on climate.
 

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What was glossed over was Bob talking about how he "nailed the mites" using OAV. No one said a word about that after he spoke. Also, where they using one gram per BC or ? Higher dosages of OAV has been found to be more effective.
 

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What was glossed over was Bob talking about how he "nailed the mites" using OAV.
Yes, but he also stated that’s why he doesn’t move bees South any longer. He describes a break in brood rearing where he is at that doesn’t occur in South Georgia. So very climate dependent as others have said. There’s really not an argument over OAV working when you have that brood rearing break.
 

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He says not to treat unless you have too (which I agree with). She says treat every hive in the apiary if one has a high mite load. A bit contradictory. I have one hive I can't find a mite in. Even when opening drone brood. I won't treat this hive while I treat my other infested hive. Different sources of bees. Of course, I have 4 hives. If I had 400 and raised bees for a living, I'm sure I'd change my tune.
 

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ah the commercial guy says he killed the mites with oav, the researcher's never say enough about their environment or what they did. Are their hives isolated? we have had the same problem up here treating every 3 days, the mite count doesn't go down until the hives that are crashing around us die. I go with the commercial guy.
 

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For 6yrs maybe 7 I have used nothing but oav. My first season was about a 75 percent loss because I did three treatments 5 to 7 days apart in August after the last honey pull. I heard somewhere that was the recommended dose. Ever since then I have only had a 10 to 20 percent over winter loss which is often the ones that looked like they might not make it through because of queen issues. What I do now is 6 treatments 4 days apart. If for some reason I can't do a treatment on a specific day I will go 3 days on a treatment or two. I give all hives oav once at Thanksgiving and one more the first day it is warm enough after Christmas day. That was very labor intensive with the wand but much faster after getting a Johno's Easy Vap. I used to use Apiguard with good results and talked my brother in law into using it (he would never keep up the treatment schedule of oav).
 

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Remember whatever you use you can get your mite levels very low then your bees go rob the honey from your neighbors crashing hives. I have one "newbie " nearby and another that looks like they lost their's over the winter and started this year with two new nucs.
 

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Awesome, I think you really have to look at their research, there is no disconnect. Everyone knows that OAV will not treat under the wax capping, in an area where there is no true break in brood rearing this is not surprising. To hold the mites level in such area is very much controlling, they at no point mention creating a break in brood either because this is not what they looking for. If they had created a break in the brood cycle by manipulation the mite load would have dropped. None of these research’s are claiming that OAV is not effective. They are saying in that area of Georgia it is not enough. So you are looking at research that proves just because this works in one area of the US, or what ever country does not mean it will be effective for the whole. Due to the fact that OAV treatment is very much dependent on a break in the brood cycle. Very good video, thank you for posting.
Cody
also she stated she was doing every 5 days,, many here do every 4, maybe also has an impact.

GG
 

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also she stated she was doing every 5 days,, many here do every 4, maybe also has an impact.

GG
Yes, I would like to see a few more details of their study. Tightening the intervals, increasing the dosage and number of vaporizations, monitoring untreated colonies in the same yard, etc. You could be killing mites very effectively but where there is a huge in drift from neighboring bees, indications might be that OAV was ineffective. In that circumstance, really, what would be?

The shop towels/sponges do seem to be affected by relative humidity and how sloppy they are when applied. If too wet the bees avoid them for a few weeks rather than expose themselves by going to work and mulching and removing them. Local humidity affects how quickly they dry out. It is more difficult to make them evenly damp than it is to saturate them. This factor alone would make a good experiment.
 

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Maybe I am just a born skeptic, But when you listen to the researchers they speak with such great authority and yet when questioned mostly reply that they don't know. And then the Professor who ended up in hospital cause he forgot to wear his mask, shucks he better not go swimming. In fainess I must admit that I have been using OAV for around 8 years now and only wear a N95 mask if I am treating indoors, and because I do not wear a mask I make sure that I am not in a position to get caught in a plume of vapor where I can't walk away just holding my breath as I would with my head under water. I do wear eye protection which is much more important. There is mention of showing the EPA a video of a beekeeper making up OA dribble over a kitchen stove which apparently horrifies the EPA fellow and next will be regulations prohibiting you from doing this, of course they probably do not do any cooking of their own food otherwise that would also be a dangerous practice.
How does oxalic acid kill mites, don't know, with some tests done it appears if the mite comes into contact with OA crystals it dies. Maybe some of the mites just die of fright when the fog comes rolling in. In my opinion more research on the mite itself is needed. I also wonder about the fact that Apivar did not work for Bob Binnie.
 
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