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Discussion Starter #1
I learned the following in the second level of U of Montana Journeyman:

I asked if using OA vapor or dribble would compromise open brood, the response from the professor;

“In a study using two applications 14 days apart (which is becoming increasingly popular even though it is not an approved application method) there was a high percentage of young (12.6% and 9.5%) and old honey bee larvae (10.6% and 5.6%) killed after the first and second oxalic acid applications (percent death shown in parenthesis above). Also, the overall area of the open brood was reduced by 17.5% after the two applications and stayed low for about two months.”
 

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That is why I use the dribble in December. No brood in upstate NY. I like to use on a very cold day, 20 degrees or colder, and have never had any noticeable negative effects on bees.
 

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Cloverdale I read a paper about 6 weeks ago, unfortunately I cannot remember where I read it. This paper compared dribble to vapor treatments and documented brood loss and at the end found that brood loss on the OAV compared to brood loss of the untreated control hives. So I believe that brood loss from OAV is negligeable. The responce one normally gets when refering to brood loss is normally from tests done by the dribble method. Most of acedemia have very little experience with OAV and just rattle off the so called common knowledge, besides OAV is only good for broodless bees as it kills only phoretic mites. Well well so does Amitraz only kill phoretic mites so if you would have OA crystals in the hive every 4 days it would do just as well as the amitraz based miticides
 

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Discussion Starter #4
That is why I use the dribble in December. No brood in upstate NY. I like to use on a very cold day, 20 degrees or colder, and have never had any noticeable negative effects on bees.
Good to know Llyod, thanks.
 

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Cloverdale I read a paper about 6 weeks ago, unfortunately I cannot remember where I read it. This paper compared dribble to vapor treatments and documented brood loss and at the end found that brood loss on the OAV compared to brood loss of the untreated control hives. So I believe that brood loss from OAV is negligeable. The responce one normally gets when refering to brood loss is normally from tests done by the dribble method. Most of acedemia have very little experience with OAV and just rattle off the so called common knowledge, besides OAV is only good for broodless bees as it kills only phoretic mites. Well well so does Amitraz only kill phoretic mites so if you would have OA crystals in the hive every 4 days it would do just as well as the amitraz based miticides
I believe the University of Montana knows what they are talking about with such precise numbers; I’ll try and get the actual research for this. This University as you probably know is very reputable, with Dr Jerry zBromenshenk teaching part of this. I know that Rusty Burlew of Honey Bee Suite, Pat Bono of NY Bee Wellness, some of the Olivarez family have all participated in this course and have their Master Beekeeper Cert. from them. As for the Amitraz I would rather the OA than taint the comb wax in my hives. Thanks for the info though.
 

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I’ll try and get the actual research for this
The prof is referring to a dribble study HATJINA,HARISTOS 2005
https://www.researchgate.net/public...stered_by_trickling_method_on_honey_bee_brood

Kevin O’Donnell's Individual Experimental Project for the UM master program found an 80+% drop in brood in 2/3s of the tested hives when they were given 3 weekly OAVs, but its a very small sample size and some queen loss that was unlikey OAV related, but mucks up the numbers
http://doorcountybeekeepersclub.org/site/wp-content/uploads/DCBC-Mites.pdf
there have been a few "small sample size" experiments with OBHs showing young larva killed by OAV and quickly replaced with eggs that then hatch out and replace the lost larve while older larva wasn't affected as bad, suggesting damage may be easy to miss. To catch it (IIRR) they used color-coded dry erase markers on the glass to track the age range and caught on when post-treatment areas marked as young larva was younger then it should have been Ie should have been capped already
I am not aware of any large-sized OAV brood damage trials, but what we have seen seems to be in line with the label and brood damage is a real possibility

This University as you probably know is very reputable
kinda sort of?
some people feel the program is just short of a scam.... if you pay your $$, you pass No one has been denied their "piece of paper" if they paid the fees.

I am bothered that the prof didn't bother to take the time to site the study, poor practice, poor teaching. Fits in with what I have been told by people who have dropped out, feeling they were wasting there time and money and weren't getting a good education... I know one "master" from the program who has never done anything more than walk away splits, how can you be a "master beekeeper" and have no queen rearing experience?
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Actually our queen rearing program was modeled off of Randy Olivers and tested as such. Microscopy of tracheal mites and nosema levels which most of us know; varroa lifecycle, which is figured in hours, more accurate than days; how to do an appropriate oxalic acid VAPORIZATION, NOT DRIBBLE, which made me antsy it took him so long;
splits their way; pollination; basic anatomy of honey bees (more indepth of just general); and of flowers, etc. I am looking forward to discussions of scientific literature, rankings of articles, whats bogus etc., and my least anticipated part of the course is Pesticides. The required book is Pollinaror Protection: A Bee &Pesticide Handbook by Carl A. Johansen & Daniel F. Mayer, we are required to read cover to cover. Its like one of those dreaded high school required reading books that you check how many pages it is (and I am a reader) This is one third of the grade, taught by Dr Bromenshenk and Cam Lay, whom I recognize from the Bee-L forum. So, as for MSL’s “master” thats too bad he is a knucklehead (not you MSL). I did ask for the research on the testing of killed brood study so I will post what is passed on.
You are graded on participation in the forums and of course testing. If I thought this was a money only program I wouldnt be in it. I did check out Cornells but I wont say anymore about that.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
If Vapourised Oxalic Acid does indeed kill significant amounts of brood, then I'd expect to see bees hauling out at least some advanced-stage grubs - but I have yet to see any evidence of that happening after an application.
LJ
I dont think it was significant, but if open brood wouldnt they eat it? And I havent seen that myself either but Im thinking the more vulnerable eggs/ young larva?
 

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The tests in MSL's post are completely contrary to the paper I read in the last 3 months, unfortunately I cannot remember where I read it. It was a Paper from some university and their conclusion was that brood loss by the colonies treated with OAV was compareable to the brood loss in their control colonies. I think that some of Randy Olivers test with OAV surprised him with the strengths of the colonies after I think 9 treatments 10 days apart. Personally I have never seen bees dying or colonies being weakened by OAV treatments and my colonies recieve at least 12 treatments a year.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
I havent seen any unless, like I mentioned to little john, they eat them.
 

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Cloverdale I used to treat my observation hive often and observe the results, maybe I would not see if workers were removing eggs but I would have noticed them removing or eating brood. Why they would remove eggs in the first place as I am sure that if open brood is not effected there is less likelyhood that eggs would be effected. Now the observation hive has 6 medium frames and I would treat them with a full 2 grams to look for adverse effects but found none.
 

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Discussion Starter #13
You know, I just dont know what to think about this. This is being taught at college level by a reputable college and Professor.
 

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Would this be something useful the Bee Health Guru device could solve? ;)

Alex
 

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I think someone made reference to mortality due to multiple dribble treatments and assumed it also applied to vaporization. This has been hashed out before but cant remember where that took place. If that truly applied to Oxalic Acid Vaporization it would be well known.
 

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I, two years ago, had 2 single deep 9 frame test hives where the (marked queens) were held behind excluders on 3 frames. I’ve marked frames of brood and watched the development from egg to emerging bee.
I vaporized those 2 hives EVERY time I’m went to the yard which was almost every week from March through October. I could find no harm to either the queens or brood during that time.

That was all I needed to see as to whether OAV was detrimental.
 

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I just dont know what to think about this. This is being taught at college level by a reputable college and Professor.
The prof provided data from a dribble study(without telling you the method), did he send anything about OAV specifically? To Johno's point, its easy to find studies showing the brood is impacted by dribble, OAV not so much

johno its still real early, as this is researched we will see contrary results till a trend emerges. like Dribble's impacts, its likely climate and genetics play a role, and it's likely a nonsignificant issue
 

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The bit I don't understand is why would VOA kill open brood ? Say two grams of OA is injected (I use just the one) - of that maybe 50% (say) ends up on the woodwork or attached to bees. That would leave around one gram spread over thousands of cells (which form a more-or-less vertical surface anyway - with the youngest of the larva tucked down well inside at the bottom of the cell. Larval food is acidic anyway, so how much more acidity would be generated by the few micro-xtals of oxalic acid which reaches it ?

Although I've never used dribble - likewise, I really can't see why that would affect brood mortality either. The cold liquid might, as might thermal exposure during the treatment - but not the OA itself. A puzzle.
LJ
 

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Drizzle with glycerine as the sticky moisturizer rather than sugar has promise as causing less ingestion by the bees. Glycerine tastes sweet to us but the bees dont like it. It would be far more expensive than sugar syrup so that is probably the reason this is not getting much traction.

Maybe with vaporization they dont have to lick it off; they can just blow it off!

As far as an instructor being infallible...... well....., I would not give that a lot of weight.
 
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