[WLC]

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/01/opinion/risking-another-silent-spring.html

"The conclusion of the most comprehensive assessment to date of a class of systemic pesticides called neonicotinoids indicates that these chemicals are wreaking much more environmental havoc than previously thought."

 

[deknow]

Given what you are quoting, am I to assume that you consider the NYT editorial page a reliable place for science news AND analysis?

 

[WLC]

Look, this trend happens pretty much every summer around this time.

It seems to be happening in 3's.

There's the Home Depot announcement about neonics in their plants. There's the POTUS setting up a task force and helping pollinators.

Then there's this recent meta study by a task force of scientists.

By the way, it isn't a matter of the news outlet. It's a matter of the task force findings.

Having read quite a few of the studies over the years, I'm in agreement.

What's your issue Dean?

 

[squarepeg]

let's assume that you and those who share your sentiments have it your way and neonics are outlawed. what is your vision for life beyond them? what takes their place? how likely is the replacement technology or the absence of a replacement going to allow agriculture to keep up with the increasing population's demand for food. can you direct me to any of those numerous studies that you have read that address these questions?

 

[taxonomy]

let's assume that you and those who share your sentiments have it your way and neonics are outlawed. what is your vision for life beyond them? what takes their place? how likely is the replacement technology or the absence of a replacement going to allow agriculture to keep up with the increasing population's demand for food. can you direct me to any of those numerous studies that you have read that address these questions?

God forbid that we should have to change anything about the way we live. So, what's your vision if we just crank it up to 11 and just keep on cranking out new pesticides, drugs and nail polish removers? Let's roll, mine the deep ocean methane too when the the second it's cheaper than oil. Never, ever let the lights go on on this party! 19 cent per pound peppers in winter New England, flown in from Holland, forever.

Population increase is the same as compound interest. It's not that long before these already big numbers start doubling. We're also, going to have to get a handle on that and the fact that we take stuff from deep out of the ground (oil, metals, minerals) and turn the into intense poisons in the thin crust we live on. The whole industrial revolution and fossil fuel epoch will look like a very destructive blip in the mirror in 1000 years.

Nope, we should be able to go on living just like this, having lots of babies and driving around in ever bigger cars, making up new pesticides as we go along. No problem. Bees'll just need to suck it up.

 

[WLC]

I've already stated that I think that RNAi technology needs to be developed and implemented as a replacement technology.

My issue with the current technology is this: why would anyone think that if every seed is coated with the same systemic pesticide, and every field is treated with the same herbicide, every time someone grows a crop, that we aren't impacting the environment?

It's prophylactic! It's also unsustainable.

 

[Rader Sidetrack]

squarepeg has a valid point. Eliminating neonics through political action doesn't mean that insecticides are going to go away, it just means that some other insecticide will be used instead.

The real issue is will that alternative insecticide be less harmful to pollinators, or not.

WLC certainly hasn't proposed any solution to that issue.

 

[squarepeg]

i like your sarcasm adam.

may God help us use the good brains that He has given us to come up with the appropriate changes necessary to adapt and overcome these serious challenges, let we fall by the wayside like so many other great civilizations of the past that got too big for their britches.

neonics are the current change in strategy, many would say an improvement over what we had. perfect? no. a better alternative? hopefully those who know more than wlc or i are working on it.

 

[squarepeg]

I've already stated that I think that RNAi technology needs to be developed and implemented as a replacement technology.

and when do you expect that to be ready for roll out?

 

[Rader Sidetrack]

And what happens if RNAi technology doesn't work out exactly as WLC thinks it will?




... how could that possibly happen ....

 

[WLC]

squarepeg has a valid point. Eliminating neonics through political action doesn't mean that insecticides are going to go away, it just means that some other insecticide will be used instead.

The real issue is will that alternative insecticide be less harmful to pollinators or not.

WLC certainly hasn't proposed any solution to that issue.

Ahhh! The same old, same old, strawman argument.

How about choice in what kind of seed you buy? With or with out a coat for example. Most farmers can do a better job of crop protection by spraying.

You get more of it on the crop, when you need it, and less of it goes into the soil when compared to neonic seed coats (over 90%).

There's are studies showing that non GMO/non neonic farming can get the same yields.

 

[Rader Sidetrack]

Most farmers can do a better job of crop protection by spraying.

Spraying with what? What is the WLC approved insecticide? :scratch:

There's are studies showing that non GMO/non neonic farming can get the same yields.

If that is really true, why is it that farmers are still spending all that extra money for GMO/neonic licensing fees? :s Do you think farmers waste money just for the fun of it? :lpf:

 

[ForrestB]

Here we go again.

People who don't like neonicotinoids aren't going to persuade those who love them, and vice versa. Doesn't matter how many studies, who does them, what results, people will keep on with their views, so what exactly is the point of this endless debate?

 

[taxonomy]

i like your sarcasm adam.

Plenty more where that came from.

neonics are the current change in strategy

Neonics are not a change in strategy, they're a tactical change at most. It's a refining or adjustment of something we've been doing for a long time, but it's not substantially different. "poison A no longer seems to work, let's try poison b"

A strategic move would be to try and get less food spoiled by fungus after it leaves the field, currently about 50% is lost before it's consumed. Changing this would be strategic. Population reduction would be strategic. Moving away from meat would be strategic. International deep water fishing treaties would be strategic. Ameliorating wealth disparity or educating girls. That's strategic.

Well, that's all just too hard, isn't it? Just, you know, too complicated and hard. Nobody is going to want to do that! So, the choice is we do it on our own terms or those terms will be forced on us. My guess? The latter, but don't worry too much. It's mostly your kids and grand kids that will deal with the mass migrations, the resource wars and the flooded coastal cities where, increasingly, everyone lives.

We, the beekeepers, we'll be remembered as those who saw the effects first, and protested mildly.

 

[Nabber86]

God forbid that we should have to change anything about the way we live. So, what's your vision if we just crank it up to 11 and just keep on cranking out new pesticides, drugs and nail polish removers? Let's roll, mine the deep ocean methane too when the the second it's cheaper than oil. Never, ever let the lights go on on this party! 19 cent per pound peppers in winter New England, flown in from Holland, forever.

Straw man alert!!!

Here is a list of 65 pesticides that have been banned since the good ol' days:

http://scorecard.goodguide.com/chemical-groups/one-list.tcl?short_list_name=brpest


We had it cranked up in the middle part of the 20th century when the Cuyahoga River caught fire in Cleveland, they were still dumping in Love Canal, landfills were open dumps, and every gas station in the US had was leaking petroleum into the groundwater. ALL of those things have been cleaned up.

 

[D Semple]

A strategic move would be to try and get less food spoiled by fungus after it leaves the field, currently about 50% is lost before it's consumed.


Ameliorating

Adam, where are you getting the 50% figure from?

Ameliorating - cool, learned a new word.

Also, glad to see another liberal


Don

 

[WLC]

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/01/s...ter-emerald-ash-borers-destroy-them.html?_r=0

This is also one of the uses of neonics that is confounding.

 

[jim lyon]

Straw man alert!!!

Here is a list of 65 pesticides that have been banned since the good ol' days:

http://scorecard.goodguide.com/chemical-groups/one-list.tcl?short_list_name=brpest

Ah yes, I see Parathion made the list, a real golden oldie. I remember having bees wiped out with that stuff and seeing lots of dead birds around as well. Talk about a silent spring. Of course that was one of those "selective" sprays......

 

[WLC]

Are you saying you've never seen 'bird kills' from neonic coated seeds?

 

[spreerider]

seed not coated is available all over, if your vendor doesnt sell it change vendors there are plenty of organic suppliers out there for those that want organics, why force everyone to switch to organic when you are the one wanting to switch.