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need advice on weak hive - what would you do?

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3.6K views 30 replies 12 participants last post by  roddo27846  
#1 ·
This is my second bee-keeping year, and I need some advice from all of you experts. I have 2 hives - hive A is doing very well. Hive A is a 10-frame of Carniolan bees. The bottom deep is full of brood and honey, while the second is almost completely full of sealed honey. I plan to put a shallow super on this coming weekend. Hive B is an 8-frame Italian mix. They are not doing so well - lots of healthy busy worker bees, but there seems to be a queen issue: very little brood, shotgun pattern, and not a lot of honey either. They have not quite completely filled the bottom deep yet, though they have built out the cells. I have very little hope of them making it through our rough winter, even with lots of feeding over the late summer/fall. Questions:

1) for hive A - is it normal to have the second deep completely full of honey with all of the brood below? I thought for some reason this second box would be mixed.

2) for hive B - what should I do? Is it too late in the season to re-queen? I am a beginner and haven't yet actually identified the queen, so what if I am unable to do that successfully? What happens if you add a new queen without getting rid of the old one (probably a stupid question)?

3) hive A is really quite large, in terms of bee population. Could I still combine the hives going into winter? I'm afraid that would leave me with at least a 3-deep configuration for winter and then again - what about the failing queen (I don't want to accidentally introduce her into the "good" hive)?

4) if I fed hive B like crazy all through the rest of summer and into fall, plus added food for winter - is there a possibility they could make it and I could re-queen in the spring?

5) another silly question - is there any way to "inspire" the bees to make their own new queen to supersede the failing one?

What would you do at this point?

Thank you so much for your advice and accepting my naive questions!

-- Tracey in Idaho
 
#2 ·
You might want to consider getting rid of the Italian queen and do a newspaper combine. It may challenging to find her, but breathe deeply, remain calm, be methodical, and go real easy on the smoke. Is hive B just one deep? I don't know how to deal with the 8 frame to 10 frame issue though, unless you can transfer the 8 to a 10 before combining. I'd say put the Italian hive on top with newspaper, and after a few days switch it to the second box with the honey filled deep above that. 3 deeps is a lot, but they'll be strong. It's generally not a good idea to combine with two queens. It's really too late in the season to think about raising a new queen. In theory though, if you removed the queen they'd raise a new one.

I think the Carniolan colony will do much better in the winter.
 
#3 ·
Italians typically do make a larger brood nest than the carnis. Maybe the mites are
affecting the hive build up. What is the mite level now in the Italians hive?
If you don't know the mites level and simply doing a combine then the carnis hive might
be affected too. Sometimes it is the hygienic behaviors that they are removing the infected
larvae. Hard to give you an accurate answer to this issue.
 
#4 ·
1) Yes its normal, especially if they've no where else to put honey. Give them a super before they start backfilling any more.

2) You could buy a queen...or...you could take a frame of open brood from hive A and give it to hive B. If A is strong enough you could do that for a few weeks, one frame per week...but time is short, so timing is everything.

3) You said the 2nd box of A is mostly honey so really you'd be combining both of the bottoms that have brood, separated by newspaper, placing all the honey from both on top of the two combined broodnests

4) Possible? Yes. Likely? No.

5) See answer provided in #3

Good Luck!!!
 
#5 ·
1) for hive A - is it normal to have the second deep completely full of honey with all of the brood below? I thought for some reason this second box would be mixed.
Very normal, and a good thing at this time of year.

2) for hive B - what should I do?
First, determine if the problem is the queen. It could be EFB, or PMS. Maybe you could post a pic of the brood here so we can attempt to diagnose?

3) hive A is really quite large, in terms of bee population. Could I still combine the hives going into winter?
Can you do it? Yes. Should you do it? No.
Hive A sounds like it's fine, and will not benefit at this time of year from having more bees added to it. But more importantly, never combine a potentially diseased hive onto a healthy one. Be sure what is wrong with hive B first.

4) if I fed hive B like crazy all through the rest of summer and into fall, plus added food for winter - is there a possibility they could make it and I could re-queen in the spring?
It's possible but not the best plan of attack until you are sure what is the problem.

5) is there any way to "inspire" the bees to make their own new queen to supersede the failing one?
Yes, chronic overcrowding and overfeeding at this time of year will encourage them to supersede but it's not guaranteed to work. It may also not be the best plan if the hive has a disease or the queen is of poor stock.

It is very normal when seeing patchy brood to assume the problem is the queen. But often the queen is fine and the cause is something else. Which means replacing the queen does not solve the issue. How about start by getting a pic or two of the brood and post it here for diagnosis and then go from there?
 
#6 ·
Hive A sounds crowded, Are they putting nectar in the brood nest? If so I would open up the brood nest with and one empty frame between two brood frames a few at a time. This time of the year they might not draw a new super, so you might want to harvest some of the honey and leave the wet frames out for cleaning before putting back in the hive (putting wet frames in a hive may attract lots of beetles this time of the year).

>there seems to be a queen issue: very little brood, shotgun pattern

It is almost never the queen's fault. As Oldtimer suggested it could be EFB, or PMS.

All your other questions come down to hive B; Post pictures of your open and capped brood in that hive. There are likely problems causing your shot gun brood, pictures should reveal it.

Do not swap frames from the weak hive to the strong hive, I would also not combine them until you identify the problem.
 
#7 ·
About conflicting advise;

I guess this is why new beeks are often 'even more confused' when trying to get help on these bee forums, a complaint often levied at local meetings.

I'm gonna try harder from now on not to respond to those questions asked from well outside my region, and especially to those questions that fail to provide enough info, or fail to respond to further questions B4 giving an answer...because honestly, 'all beekeeping really is local' ... Like....we've never even seen SHB up here in Northern Wisconsin inside any of our hives, except once several years ago when we bought some queens from Texas, there were a few inside the cages, but we squished them good....:cool:

IMHO and that of many other beeks, Besides queen failure, the most common cause of colony failure is poor beekeeping (add varroa). Alas, Its been that way for as long as I've been messing with them, beginning in the mid 70's, and it ain't likely to change any time soon. :)
 
#8 ·
Thank you all very much. I will get some photos very soon and post them for review. I have treated 3 times for mites this summer using ApiLife Var and also grease patties, since last year we had some tracheal mites. I also use my own essential oil blend in their early syrup (thyme, lemongrass, spearmint). There is no obvious parasite or disease issue, though that doesn't mean I'm not missing something. Both hives have screened bottom boards. The 2 hives are about 8 feet apart from one another, so resource access is the same. Early in the season both got syrup and pollen patties, though the robust hive blasted through theirs much faster.

A little more background - the questionable hive, hive B, was installed in early May as a package which was during a terrible weather period here. It was in the 40s and very rainy and wet. They also had had a rough journey from out of state and went through a warm-up period during travel before being exposed to the cold during installation. After 3 days, the wax queen cap had been eaten through, but the queen was still in her cage, so after this much time, I removed the screen. From the get go, this hive seemed to struggle, even though it started out with an abundance of bees. They have built out all frames in one bottom deep only, with only a very little brood (and that terribly scattered) and a little honey - lots of empty cells. By comparison, the robust hive, hive B, was installed from a nuc, had a good installation, and took off right from the start gobbling up syrup and patty in late May. They quickly filled the bottom deep and now have a second deep about 85% full of honey. I'm adding a medium super this weekend.

I will add photos soon. Thanks again for your advice - it helps. I'd like to save hive B, but don't want to endanger hive A.

-- Tracey in Idaho
 
#9 ·
Honeybees figured out how to deal with tracheal mites (and many other maladies without human intervention) a few decades ago. If given enough time, and by treating 'only' when necessary, they will eventually figure out varroa too, if they are given the chance IMHO.

The only experts are the bees....as beeks we just need to listen, study, observe and try to think like a bee, and that's pretty hard for most everyone.

Good Luck!

All mediums, treatment free (using splits and allowing for some swarms) and foundationless since 2007
 
#17 ·
Honeybees figured out how to deal with tracheal mites (and many other maladies without human intervention) a few decades ago. If given enough time, and by treating 'only' when necessary, they will eventually figure out varroa too, if they are given the chance IMHO.

The only experts are the bees....as beeks we just need to listen, study, observe and try to think like a bee, and that's pretty hard for most everyone.
Perfectly said -- IMHO!
 
#10 ·
>grease patties, since last year we had some tracheal mites.

As drummer said T mites have not been a problem in a while. This is old obsolete information abandoned in the dark corners of the internet.

>I also use my own essential oil blend in their early syrup (thyme, lemongrass, spearmint).

EOs are another one, it's also possibly the worst thing you can do to your bees. They don't work on mites and they destroy your bee's probiotic making them vulnerable to disease like EFB and AFB;

"Neither pure essences nor blends of essences were effective to control AFB at the doses and formulations tested in this study. On the contrary, colonies treated with essences showed higher levels of infection than those receiving control treatments. This may be related to a certain level of toxicity of the essences to larvae and adults."

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...to_completo.1.27.%20M3502.pdf?sequence=1&usg=AFQjCNEPZX_JlSVgl5vKMWhR3BxTTz61DQ

More on EOs (also see the links in post #17);
http://www.beesource.com/forums/sho...337077-Steps-to-making-sure-my-bees-make-their-first-year&p=1546094#post1546094

Post pictures of your open and capped brood, try to get down into the cells so we can see the larva.
 
#13 ·
Just to further clarify - I did have tracheal mites last summer, as verified by my microscope examinations, so they haven't disappeared from the radar as at least somewhat of an issue (I have a biological microscope). The grease patties did help, so I now use them as a prophylactic. From my examinations, varroa does not seem to be a problem - I have verified very few mites and have been acting preventatively. The essential oil suggestions came from Ross Conrad, in his book "Natural Beekeeping" as well as a professional beekeeper friend from Utah who has had great success with probiotics and essential oils in boosting bee health. With the same location and treatment, I have one hive that is absolutely thriving, and the other that is very weak. And, the problem began with their arrival in May - not August. This second hive has struggled all along. I feel pretty strongly it is a queen issue of some sort, compounded perhaps by their very difficult arrival/installation. Perhaps I waited too long to address it (kept hoping they would catch up), but I am struggling to figure out what to right now. I will send photos soon of their brood patterning - gotta get in there with my husband's camera. Thanks again,

-- Tracey in Idaho
 
#15 ·
You have obviously given this hive a fair share amount of time for them to build up. By now if they have a
strong queen you should have 3 deeps with supers on top. I say a combination of bee disease like the t-mites, varroa and
weak queen issue caused by the rough handling and delayed in releasing. What you can do is to even out the hives and requeen them with a strong queen. This will be a nuc hive to over winter in. The strong hive A you will let it grow but not to the point of swarming. Take some cap broods without the attaching to the weak hive should even out the hives a bit. Continue to check on the mites so they will not
affect the winter bees. Time is short so make the move now.
 
#16 ·
What have you been doing to assess for mites, not just trying to observe them? Without (at least) sugar rolls you are flying blind at this time of year.

You also haven't described the state of uncapped larvae in the colony - what do they look like? When people are suggesting EFB or PMS based on your mention of the shot-gun brood pattern, they are keying off what is an end-stage symptom of things that are better sorted out based on earlier signs.

PMS, of course is a long-running, or overwhelming, state of having an excess of varroa. Regular mite board counts (every week) and/or monthly sugar rolls give the needed info for that diagnosis.

I do sticky board counts on every colony, every week all year long (even in my cold NY winter), and I do sugar rolls on every colony once a month from April to late Oct. I always have a very good idea of what my mite status is, because I hate mite-y surprises. This also allowed me to stop lurching from crisis to crisis of mite levels and make a plan to deal with them on a year-round schedule. And that (along with constant monitoring to verify my plan is still working) means I can treat a whole lot less frequently than most people need to do, with better results.

In EFB, unless it has reached really critical stages, you will see ample evidence of eggs and very young larvae, but few of the larvae are pearly white, fat, cell-filling late stage larvae or pre-pupae. EFB affects larvae 4-5 days old and causes them to twist, slump, yellow, turn grey-ish in their cells, and die well before they get to the capping stage. Though you can expect a few that were infected late in their development to get capped, which results in perforated cappings when the bees pull the dead ones out. Hives can struggle on with EFB when enough larvae escape getting sick to make replacement bees. The shotgun brood pattern occurs when the larvae die before capping and as a result the cell is not capped like the rest of near-by ones.

Queen problems can also manifest as a shot-gun pattern, so the first step is to locate areas of eggs and note whether they are in swathes where every open cell has a roughly same-age egg. That means that at she's least laying well, and that she has enough eggs and sperm for the job. Sometimes, though, queens can be too in-bred and some, or a large part, of the resulting pupae will end up being turfed out by the worker bees who can tell if that is a problem. This creates a shotgun pattern in the patches of brood. She may also not have been well-mated and could have run out of sperm, so all her babies will be drones, often laid in worker-sized cells which make for an unusually lumpy brood capping pattern. (Lumpier, and more, scattered, than typical whole patches of drone laid in drone sized cells.) Bees will often supercede a queen that turns into a drone-layer, which is what happens when she runs out sperm. They have to catch it early enough so that she still is laying at least some fertile eggs, however, for a supercedure to be successful.

So, my advice would be to immediately do sugar rolls on both hives (even thriving ones can have huge quantities of mites at this time of year, particularly in their second summer.) This will help the differential diagnosis of the problems on the weak hive. It would be best to have had done sugar rolls all season so you could have improved information to use now, but better late than never. I use - and teach -Meghan Milbrath's Michigan Method of Mite Monitoring, which I saw demonstrated as performing as well as alcohol washes last summer at the NYBeeWellness Conference, and not lethal to the tested bees. You can find info on it by Googling: "Michigan Mite monitoring" It's easy to learn, though sounds complicated at first. Doing them often and regularly in the warm months will build your skills, so it will become just a routine maintenance chore when doing inspections.

EFB is dxed by looking for the signs I described above,. You can buy good, one-use diagnostic kits for about $12-13 each from some bee suppliers. (I got mine from Betterbee.) And you can also, once again, send a piece of the affected comb to Beltsville for a free examination, but sometimes that takes too much time to get the results, especially at this time of year in a cold climate. If confirmed, you may be able to get a prescription for antibiotics to treat it.

Queen issues are more subtle, but it starts by really studying her work product, which is your brood, from egg-stage to capped stage. The frames will tell the tale, if you can decipher them. This is something that takes ongoing observation, probably for many years, to really master. But the basics are do-able even for beginners: eggs? solid pattern? mixed age larvae? solid pattern? late-stage, fat white larvae and pre-pupae? large patches of capped brood with slightly domed caps? mid-aged capped brood with no holes in them? later-stage capped larvae with some live bees emerging?


I didn't see any of my queens until the spring of my second year. I nearly dropped the first frame when I finally saw one! She was nowhere near what I had been looking for, or expecting to see, even though she was a nice fat, solid brown-bodied queen in sea of smaller, striped girls. Looking back I can't imagine how I missed her for so long, but I did. Once I found one, then I quickly was able to locate the others even though they didn't look at all like the first one. Now I recommend marked queens for all novice beekeepers, even though it delays development of "queen-eyes" when you have the "cheat" of a brightly-colored dot to go by. I also mark all my own, too, since it's handy to know that the same gal is still there from inspection to inspection and year to year.

So seeing your unmarked queen may not be a big deal, but seeing constant evidence of her work, is absolutely necessary. And anybody can learn to do that, just by keeping track of what you see from one inspection to the next.

There is a handy writing surface on the top of each frame to make notes of where you saw eggs/larvae. capped brood on the previous visit. It really helps a lot to watch the same area go through the stages of development. I use a paint marker pen for that on my plastic Piercos. If you have wooden frames, a Sharpie works just fine.

If you can use a microscope to check for tracheal mites, then upping your observational skills to study your brood development patterns and find your queen should be duck soup.

BTW, if you find too many mites and decide to treat, MAQS, (formic acid) is usable with the supers on, and will also kill tracheal mites as well as varroa. I deliberately switch up to it every once in awhile (from my mainstay, oxalic acid) just for that purpose. Formic acid is a treatment allowed under the Certified Naturally Grown Label, which is what passes for "organic" certification in the case of honey. It's chief drawback is danger at higher temps, which may not be an issue for you in ID. I would not use it much later in the season than now without a known source for a mated queen should something happen.

Hope this helps you figure out what to do. I also second (third? fourth?) the advice not to move any frames from the sick colony, or combine until you've figured out what's going there.

Nancy
 
#19 ·



OK - attached are some photos of a few different frames. This is the weak hive, so they have only filled (or are working on) 7 out of 8 of the frames in one deep box. By comparison, the robust hive has filled 2 deeps and will have a super added this weekend and they are in a 10 frame. Advice? Thanks so much,

-- Tracey in Idaho
 

Attachments

#23 ·
View attachment 34836 View attachment 34837 View attachment 34838 View attachment 34839


OK - attached are some photos of a few different frames. This is the weak hive, so they have only filled (or are working on) 7 out of 8 of the frames in one deep box. By comparison, the robust hive has filled 2 deeps and will have a super added this weekend and they are in a 10 frame. Advice? Thanks so much,

-- Tracey in Idaho
I see lots of eggs and larva mixed in with that 'scattered' capped brood....and no visible signs of disease :scratch:.

No two colonies are ever the same. Weak today can mean booming by next week depending on many factors...which this one 'appears' to be heading toward, with 7 out of 8 frames being worked. Frankly, from the pics, I don't 'see' a problem with this colony....just a slow starter...perhaps?
 
#21 ·
Tracey,

Fifth picture,
Second row of open cells from the top on the right hand side
Left-most cell of that group of four has what may be a slumped larva, or it could also be a reflection of nectar.

And on the good side, I see lots of late-stage larvae that appear healthy to me, and are past the stage when EFB starts to hammer them. I am looking at your pics on my laptop, not full-sized monitor.

Not seeing any eggs - did you see eggs anywhere in that colony? Uncapped brood means there was a queen there as recently as 10 days ago. Has anything happened in the hive since that time?

So, now I leaning more towards mites being the issue, than spotty brood due to EFB. (My EFB-sick frames looking nothing like that - I would rejoice if they did!) What are your latest mite count numbers?

Nancy
 
#22 ·
I looked at you frame picks. Did not see any noticeable will g malformations. (On my phone)

Also almost all open cells have brood this is a good sign.

Perhaps that frame had alot of pollen and bee bread that caused the cells to get eggs at carrying times.

Your queen seems to be filling up what is open.

Of they are a package from this spring, getting a full brood box and a partial super of honey would be success the first year where I live. I would expect to feed to top them off for winter depending g on late summer and fall weather here.

The second year would be another story, I would expect to see the bist wide open in spring g and to possibly take a sit from them.
 
#24 ·
No obvious disease other than one cell top left of the thumbnail pic, possible varroa mite damage. But doesn't look like enough varroa damage to cause this issue.

Overfeeding of essential oils can cause brood like this, young larvae just emerged from the egg are susceptable to being killed if too much EO's in the syrup. Not saying that's the problem, but it's a possibilty. Failing that, just might be the queen all along.
 
#25 ·
I thought about mentioning the factor of putting stuff in the hive that the bees didn't or wouldn't, but did not want to open that rather controversial can, being that modern beeks seem to be putting all kinds of junk inside, with only anecdotal purpose or reasoning....

If bees wanted essential oils, wouldn't they find some themselves? We grow a large amount of herbs on this place, bees seem to be loving thyme, St John's wort and oregano right now.....but that hasn't convinced me to add some drops of the stuff into their domain from a little jar.
 
#27 ·
OK - thank you all so much for the feedback. What I plan to do right now with the weak hive is this: feed with syrup (no additives), and continue to monitor closely (taking the photos really helps with the ability to blow up images), including mite counts. I treated 3 times throughout the summer with ApiLife Var, which is considered organic treatment, as a preventative measure, and plan to do oxalic acid in September. I really don't think mites are the issue with this hive, but I will do my job here. I will also add an empty frame between brood frames to see what happens. Three more questions:

1) is it possible this hive is just a late bloomer? it actually seems to have "sped" up a bit over the past week - they started from a package

2) if they are late, is there any hope of them catching up by September?

3) would it be OK to take a frame or 2 of honey from the robust hive and add to the weak hive (without disadvantaging the robust hive)?

Thanks again so much for all of the various feedback. I am learning a lot.

-- Tracey in Idaho
 
#28 ·
1) It is possible they are a late bloomer, but that does not account for the spotty brood. Which is likely why they are behind.

2) Yes, but IMO the spotty brood needs to be fixed before they can build up population. Others suggest to try a new queen.

3) Yes, also a frame of brood/eggs will also help increase population. (I still would not move anything from the weak hive to the strong hive).
 
#29 ·
And don't use Api Life Var anymore, which annoys the bees but is notoriously ineffective against varroa mites regardless of the confident statements on the label. If you have to be "organic" use oxalic vapor, or MAQS (carefully).

Or, if you identify a mite issue and want a no fuss, serious treatment that works, use apivar strips.