Interesting, I never bought into foundationless being faster, that being said, I have a hard time getting plastic worked with our minimal flows. You may see that foundationless side take off quick once they get going.
We've not been at this to long, only 4 years. One thing I've learned, and I do get tired of it, ask 5 beekeepers, get 5 answers. That's not helpful, and particularily for a newbie, very unhelpful. I've come to the conclusion, that some of that is due to locality. One example, during our first couple of years, everybody told us, month of August is a dearth. Well, maybe for them, 5 miles down the road from us, but we were in a subdivision full of meticulously landscaped yards. Our bees were finding stuff to work on continuously, when those just 5 miles down the road on a blueberry farm, had nothing. So some of this is not just here-say, it's due to locality, and locality means 'by neighborhood', not 'by province or state'.Thanks for setting up this experiment. Much of what is repeated ad nauseum on the i'tubes has no basis in evidence.
This is part of why I did this experiment the way I did. Conditions are equal for the two halves, same colony, same frame location in the colony, and on the same flow. What I'm measuring, is which half gets drawn first. This is as close as I could come to 'all other things being equal, which is full first'. There is only one variable here, and that's the plastic foundation on one side, vs the gaping empty hole with starter strips above and comb guides all around on the other side.I can get plastic drawn in a heavy flow. But in a moderate flow I can still get foundationless drawn when they won't touch plastic.
My personal opinion is your study is flawed. Similar to another study years ago where they put several different wax foundation sizes in each frame. A better way to do it is have two hives in the same yard one with foundationless frames and one with foundation. Start them both with packages. Way too many variables to do it like you did.The original plan was to cut out both halves and put another control frame into the hive, but then I decided I could do experiment and control on the same frame, which means placement doesn't become a factor, it's literally side by side.
But they aren't. Your frame is not equal. More foundation than not. No comb guide for foundationless. Foundation surrounding the foundationless area. Even when foundation is being drawn out, it is always recommended that complete supers (10 frames) are given at the start and then one or two of full comb are pulled up into the next super to seed it. Same would apply to foundationless IMO. I have no dog in this fight, just going on my own experience.Conditions are equal for the two halves, same colony, same frame location in the colony, and on the same flow.
And you don't think your way would introduce all sorts of variables? I can't count the number of times I've had one hive drawing comb like crazy and its next door neighbor hardly drawing any at all. And both using the same foundation.A better way to do it is have two hives in the same yard one with foundationless frames and one with foundation. Start them both with packages. Way too many variables to do it like you did.
No eggs on it, queen was on a frame 2 over, busy laying into cells polished after recently emerging.Do you see any eggs in the partially drawn foundation side?
That study is no better as two packages can have completely different characteristics. My 2 packages this are drastically different in their performance on the exact same equipment. The packages were identical "breeds" of both bees and queens.My personal opinion is your study is flawed. Similar to another study years ago where they put several different wax foundation sizes in each frame. A better way to do it is have two hives in the same yard one with foundationless frames and one with foundation. Start them both with packages. Way too many variables to do it like you did.
I would argue there is indeed a comb guide as the strip of foundation at the top of the hole acts as a guide.But they aren't. Your frame is not equal. More foundation than not. No comb guide for foundationless. Foundation surrounding the foundationless area. Even when foundation is being drawn out, it is always recommended that complete supers (10 frames) are given at the start and then one or two of full comb are pulled up into the next super to seed it. Same would apply to foundationless IMO. I have no dog in this fight, just going on my own experience..
There ya go, reason his experiment is only good for himself!I think grozzie's approach is right on. It isn't conclusive but surely reduces the variables.
I don't have a dog in this fight either.
Exactly. Just depends on what variables have a greater impact on what it is one is trying to prove. For me, this test done the way the OP describes wouldn't prove anything. All those that say they see this way or that way building comb faster certainly aren't mixing the two types together in the same hive, much less the same frame.That study is no better as two packages can have completely different characteristics.
Here's something I've done since my first beehive...the idea of communication holes makes sense to me. I'm not sure if this helps them or not, but I've got drawn frames where these small windows are still clear.I have also *read* that the bees like to communicate, and that is why they don't like foundation. The publication recommended holes (up to 1-1/8") be drilled in the foundation before installing it, and that the bees would be quicker to draw it. I have not tried this.
I didn't realize it was a fight. We are in a mode of expanding, so, drawn brood comb is a precious resource right now, cant have to much. In planning how to continue expanding for next year, I need to buy more equipment, and reading here online, there's no end to differing opinions on what will work best. So I decided to ask my bees. The question I posed was this.I don't have a dog in this fight either.