Well, Millenia, they have been doing it for, er, millenia. Bees don't worry about it. I think you can worry about something else.

 

That's my first inclination but when you think about the fact we are artificially keeping the splits in the same location instead of them swarming and flying away, it makes me wonder about the genetics getting stagnant.

 

I've wondered about that as well. I've always tried to keep a couple queens from different lines around my yard - even though I've been using the same breeder queen for grafting for a while. I think it's good to have a couple different lines just for comparison's sake. As far as interbreeding goes, my guess is that you could do that for many, many generations before seeing any problems, if ever. Unless you live in a bee desert, you probably have other drones around somewhere. Also keep in mind that over time you should have lots of half-brothers and sisters in your hives, since a queen can mate with 10-15 different drones.

 

There are a lot of drones out there. Mainly I just try not to bottleneck the genetics. If each hive continues their line (by walk away splits etc.) unless I have a reason to remove them from the gene pool, then I've done my part. Bee biology will do the rest...

 

I worried about that also but after 4 years of breeding my own bee's and seeing all the different bee colors and different bees in my apiary I don't worry any more. I am pretty proud of my bee's Genetic Diversity.
My bee's only get better. Year 3 of a sustainable apiary. It feels great not buying bees .

 

I'll go against the flow here. I think for most people in most places this is a non issue. But I live in a bee desert. There are no other bees around me that I know of except a bee tree on the neighbor which is a swarm from my hives.
I started with a nuc which raised and bred here. There was another bee tree a half mile away at that time. The first few queens I raised did good. After subsequent generations I'm getting a lot of shotgun brood and earlier supersedures.
I'll have frames that are layed solid with eggs. When capped they will only be about 70% full. I believe this to be a sign of a queen breeding with too many drones that are too close of kin.

Now that I have some outyards I'll take my nucs there for mating flights. I also plan on buying a couple queens a year to get some new blood.

 

I'll have frames that are layed solid with eggs. When capped they will only be about 70% full.

This might also be hygienic behavior. The workers could be culling.

Just a thought!

Rusty

 

Rusty
I do believe my bees are hygienic. I've never treated. But that usually happens between capping and hatching. I believe I have some of that.
Where I notice my big loss is between egg hatch and capping.

My son in law has several hives and has had two swarms move into empty hives this year. These bees are no kin to mine. About 15 miles away. I took a nuc out there this weekend. The queen should have hatched on Saturday.
There should be no drones nearby that are kin to her. In a couple or three weeks I should know if I'm wrong. I often am!

 

According to Larry Connor's book Bee Sex Essentials, if the queen lays an egg that has two identical sex alleles, then a sterile male bee will be produced and the bees will remove it. So inbreeding could produce shotgun brood but the bees that successfully hatch won't be inbred.

 

Queens outfly all drones within a quarter mile eliminating inbreeding.

 

I certainly don't disagree with this but my current queens grandmother / great grandmother flew just as far. I don't believe their breeding with drones from my yard. I also don't believe they can fly far enough to find drones that aren't cousins.

 

More complex than we know or understand, I believe. Evidence shows it doesn't matter enough to worry about.

 

See the Thread about ferals and managed colonies per square mile in America. There are a lot more colonies of bees out there than you can imagine.

 

You also have queens mating with multiple drones which adds to genetic diversity.

The downside of genetic diversity is non-reproducibility of traits. As you increase diversity you add and lose some traits.

Tom

 

And to think drones being welcomed into any hive, some of the time... I wonder if they are just waiting around to see what girl is going on a flight next... perhaps they will cover this at H.A.S. 2014

 

I think one would have to use II exclusively and try to produce bees that are inbred before open mated queens showed signs of inbreeding. I forget what it is called, but truly inbred bees will die.

 

Not just bees. If you have a flock/herd of any livestock and don't introduce new genetics, they will die out eventually. Fertility decreases with inbreeding. This is why many, many show dog lines only produce 3-5 puppies in litters that should have 9 or more. They are so closely linebred, their fertility is reduced.

 

Perhaps bee desert is a little harsh. I know some people keep bees in the ash grove area. I live about five miles from town and before I got bees if I saw a bee working the white clover in the yard it was news.
I've been here 13 years and know of two swarms in the area. I'm pretty well acquainted with most of the neighbors within a few miles and none keep bees to my knowledge.

I'm sure there are some and I'm sure there are some ferrels. But I'm pretty sure after several generations of raising queens they have mated with drones from every hive in flying distance.

 

If I see a bee working white clover in my brother's yard it is news. And there are at least eight colonies there.

But all of those bees are drawing genetics from farther away, too. And there's always some amount of failure and new blood.

 

You cannot compare Honeybee Genetics to genetic in other livestock. Like comparing Apples and Sedimentery Rocks. Honeybees mate w/ multiple sperm donors. Those sperm donors come from who knows where. The only limitations are what is out there for queens to mate with and how far away from their brothers queens have to fly so they don't mate w/ their brothers.

As simple as we might like it to be it is actually more complex than one might think. There are plenty of books and magazine articles on this subject. You might wish to look them up. I don't know any titles right off the top of my head. But, maybe Larry Connor addresses genetics in one of his "Essentials" bee books.

 

You cannot compare Honeybee Genetics to genetic in other livestock. Like comparing Apples and Sedimentery Rocks.

Under normal conditions, true. But I was referring to the "truly inbred bees will die" comment. I don't even know under what conditions you can get "truly inbred bees."

 

I breed English Orpington chickens, and I try my hardest to walk a line between the offspring all looking identical and keeping them from drooling and running into things from being too far inbred.

It's really not that hard to do, the genetic diversity is so great, it takes multiple generations of brother/sister matings to begin noticing bad hatch rates and such.

One thing to ponder. If all your bees look the same, maybe it's time to worry about it, but if yours are anything like my colonies, every other bee shows varying coloration. That tells me they are genetically diverse.

 

>"Like comparing Apples and Sedimentery Rocks. "

I like that. Is that original? I may want to use that quote...

 

Yes. I was trying to make a point by going beyond comparing one fruit to another. Be my guest. No copyright.

 

>I was trying to make a point by going beyond comparing one fruit to another.

A point I am often trying to make, and you made it so eloquently...

 

Acidents do happen. "Quote me in your next book."

 

By trying hard to do so w/ the aid of II and a small sample of drones for sperm harvesting.

 

Honestly, anyone who says they have Italian, or Russian, or Minnesota hygienic are full of it unless they inbreed them artificially.

 

>I'm getting a lot of shotgun brood. I'll have frames that are layed solid with eggs. When capped they will only be about 70% full.
That's EFB. Got pictures? Allot of it going around. Send a sample in for testing. Check your other hives it is very contagious, can be spread by gloves, tools, frames or robbing...

>Now that I have some outyards I'll take my nucs there for mating flights.
Be careful you will spread it to your outyards.

Do you add HBH or EOs to your syrup?

 

I guess it's possible. But I don't think so. The hives are growing at about the normal speed. Since the queen can lay more eggs than the bees can take care of I can't see a real problem.

Took some honey from a hive in an outyard last night. This hive superseded this year and the queen was mated there. I immediately noticed the brood frames were solid very very few holes.

I have a queen I raised here that started her mating flights yesterday 10 miles from here. I expect her to lay solid brood patterns.
I could be wrong, I often am.

I do use a small amount of HBH in my spring buildup syrup. As soon as nectar starts I don't feed.
I feed nucs I build in late summer but don't use HBH then because of robbing.