[Michael Bush]

Making foundationless frames
You can cut a triangle off of the corner of a ¾” board and have a triangle that on it’s broad side is 1 1/16”. This can be nailed and glued to the bottom of a top bar to make a peak that the bees will attach to. Rubbing some bees wax on can help, I haven't botherd. Once you’ve made these frames you won’t need to put starter strips or foundation in them. Or you can just cut a 45 on each side of a top bar before you put the frame together.

Also you can put empty frames with no guides between drawn combs and you can put frames with a top row of cells left on the top bar in anywhere you'd put a frame of foundation.

How much time do you spend putting in foundation, wiring it, tearing it out because it sagged and crumpled or fell out of the frame?

I don't do much of that lately. I mostly use foundationless instead.

And that's not even taking into account the cost of foundation, let alone small cell foundation.

It saves me a lot of work.

Yes, I extract them. I can also use them for cut comb.

 

[Robert Hawkins]

I have every intention of trying that if my top bars in langs trial flops.

Hawk

 

[drobbins]

you better watch it there fella
the foundation manufacturers are gonna show up in the middle of the night in their unmarked helicopters and haul you off to guantanamo

Dave

 

[drobbins]

Hawk

I played around with frames with just starter strips this year with very good results
It seems to me that the problem with using topbars in a lang hive is if the bee's draw the comb down and attach it to the frame in the box bellow
seems like you need a bottom bar to stop em
not talking from experience, just speculation

Dave

 

[Michael Bush]

>It seems to me that the problem with using topbars in a lang hive is if the bee's draw the comb down and attach it to the frame in the box bellow

That's what worries me about just top bars in supers.

 

[warrior]

You extract them? No wires or other reinforcement? Is there an increased rate of blowouts? Or is it a matter of a softer touch on the extracter?

 

[Michael Bush]

>You extract them?

Yes I do.

>No wires or other reinforcement?

No wires. No reinforcement.

>Is there an increased rate of blowouts?

I'm sure I COULD make them blowout, but I've never had one of the foundationless ones blowout.

>Or is it a matter of a softer touch on the extracter?

You should always use a soft touch on the extractor. Start slow and work your way up. Also make sure they are attached a little bit on all sides and the comb isn't brand new, soft as putty wax, but slightly more mature and tougher wax. I cut the soft stuff up for comb honey, but you could also just wait a week for it to toughen up.

 

[Dave W]

MrBEE . . .

>That's what worries me about just top bars in supers.

Does size matter? Or is it shape (more natural) of a lang that prevents comb attachment along sides/bottom.

 

[Ross]

I have been using Michaels foundationless idea for a couple of years. See my sled for ripping top bars. Simple, safe, quick. When the pictures were made, I was breaking out the wedge before ripping. Now I don't bother. Rip the solid edge, break out the wedge and assemble. The half triangle works great.
http://www.myoldtools.com/sled1.jpg
http://www.myoldtools.com/sled2.jpg
http://www.myoldtools.com/sled3.jpg
http://www.myoldtools.com/sled4.jpg

 

[Michael Bush]

Bees don't attach them much on the sides. They want to be able to move from comb to comb. You just have to watch for attachments and cut them free (from bottom to top to minimize stress) before pulling the comb out of the hive.

A regular lang (with frames I'm assuming) has little to no attachement because there is a beespace from the frame to the wall and the bottom. With top bars there is the same instinct to leave space a beespace at the walls and the bottom with a few attachments on the walls and seldom any on the bottom of the hive unless a comb falls and they rebuilt it back up to the bar.

I thought the issue was top bars in a super above something. Above top bars there's a good chance they won't attach it on the bottom because it's more like a solid bottom board is (no gaps between the top bars). Above frames I'm afraid they will attach it to the top of the frame below.

 

[Michael Bush]

Pictures:

http://www.bushfarms.com/images/FoundationlessFrame1.JPG
http://www.bushfarms.com/images/Thumbnails/FoundationlessFrame2_small1.JPG
http://www.bushfarms.com/images/Thumbnails/FoundationlessDrawn_small1.JPG
http://www.bushfarms.com/images/Thumbnails/DadantDeep1_small.jpg

Here are some from Langstroth:
http://www.bushfarms.com/images/BeveledTopBar.JPG
http://www.bushfarms.com/images/Thumbnails/BeveledTopBarFrame_small.JPG
http://www.bushfarms.com/images/Thumbnails/LangstrothFrame_small.jpg