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I have googled this but don't come up with any sources.

Is it possible to determine the race of a queen by her physical attributes or behaviors? This is not a quiz, but does the queen in the photo look like an Italian or Carniolan? I ordered a Carniolan, but I "think" I got an Italian. The attendants are her offspring.

Kevin
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Is it possible to determine the race of a queen by her physical attributes or behaviors?
Pretty much any bee in the US (outside of very strict AI) is an open-mated mutt.
Does not matter if they sold you a "Carniolan" - you got a mutt with hopefully some % of contained Carni in it.
 

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Is it possible to determine the race of a queen by her physical attributes or behaviors?
thats more or less it... they are selected for color and traits and what's really there doesn't matter... ie if it looks like and italian and acts like an italian its an italian

I would say that's not a typical color for a carni
This is what I am seeing in a f-3 form II carnys
I would say about 6-8% are bolth lighter in color, and lighter in emergence weight showing that while mom/grandma were open mated in a drone statrated area, its not perfect
 

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And just so you know, this is an Italian




Your queen is a hybrid but mostly Italian.It is Italian enough that many bees sold as italian would be similar.
 

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Your queen is not a carniolan, this is a carniolan
Is it even possible to get a true Carniolan colony / nuc in the United States?
 

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Thanks for the good words.
There are two things that i think give a beekeeper more satisfaction than just about anything. One is opening the nuc you put a queen cell in to see if she is mated, looking at the comb, and seeing a beautiful pattern of eggs. The other is seeing the queen herself, and she is big, fat, and beautiful. (y) :).

I should say that carniolan queens if pure or close to it, are usually leaner than Italian queens, and you can see that in those 2 pics. Nothing wrong with that, just the way they are. A good Carniolan queen is still an egg laying machine. :)
 

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Bob Binnie made a video about introducing Caucasian bees into his apiary,
, and he bought Carniolan queens from Sue Cobey inseminated with Caucasian semen. She started the Carniolan New World project in 1981 and it currently has several universities involved.
She is located in Washington state and probably will have true Carniolan queens available.
http://www.honeybeeinsemination.com/home.html
or she may know other beekeepers who have them available.
 

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My best queen this season is a mediocre layer of some unclear origin and rather small in size.
She has a "tiger pattern" too, if this means anything.
But you know what?
The looks don't matter.

She produced the lowest mite counts without any treatments.
She is valuable to me as a breeder (especially IF she overwinters).
I also raised few daughters of hers - much better layers, but with slightly worse mite counts.

And some eye candy queens - I needed to get rid of already - worthless junk, if to ignore the looks.

Now, should someone start the "queen modeling show"?
That'd be something - a bug pageant judging.
LOL
 

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No claim to being a geneticist here, but I think the the idea that one can determine the purity of the lines via coloration is a myth. Even if one could, that does not tell us what the other half of the equation was - the drones the queen mated with.

Is she is a good queen? if so, be happy, and propagate her.
 
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Growing up we raises goats as a hobby. What we called "Briar" goats could be bought for about $50 each. A "Boer" goat could be bought for $150 and up. Boer goats are white with red heads. Of course my father would never blow $500 on pure bred Boer billy. Instead he would by Briar goats with "Boer markings". We were never disciplined or organized enough to reach my fathers goals of a full herd of Boer like goats.

Unless your queen came from a top of the line breeder who artificially inseminates, as someone else mentioned above, or they were raised on an island for the last 200 years I suspect they are all mutts. Or at the very least, "Italians with Carnolian markings"
 

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here is 1 of are Carniolan queens.
Looks like an open-mated mutt to me.
I'd never sell such queen and label it a Carniolan.
It is just not a Carni even by the exterior looks of it.
At least it should look like about what OT posted above - a solid dark queen that ideally only produces dark gray bees (IF looks do matter to someone).
:)
 

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Well yes looks do matter.

There is this growing idea that colour does not matter. It does not matter for some things. But it does, in determining breed.

It would be equally stupid to say a black man is really a white man but just has a black skin, and a white man is really a black man, just got a white skin. There may be a rare freak, but it is not the general rule.

Colour is indicative of race, and origin, in both humans, and bees.

In the case of Carniolans, as per Greg, the queen will be solid jet black. The worker bees will be jet black but have bands of grey hairs, as per my pic. (There is one bee in that pic that is not a carniolan). The grey hairs are how you distinguish those bees from AMMs, which do not have such pronounced bands of grey hairs.
 

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Well yes looks do matter.
I would agree that the appearance is a part of the specific breed qualification - of course.
There are are some set criteria for sure that define any officially known breed.

As of me personally (being a swarm chaser), I am more after certain behavioral traits, not the looks. Unfortunately, so far any time I nailed a Carni-looking/behaving swarm - they tended to be very mite-susceptible and did not last long with my ways.

I will say, subjectively I do like the dark bees (maybe because they stung me up enough when a kid).... :)
I have a soft spot for them (though finding a dark queen can be a PITA).
 
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