[Satch]

http://wakeup-world.com/2014/04/17/roundup-herbicide-found-to-be-125-times-more-toxic-than-regulators-sayLove to watch the debate on what is ok and what is not among the bee keepers. Saw this on another forum and thought I'd throw it out to find out any validity to his claim.

Is roundup really 125% more toxic than what they have claimed?

 

[Vance G]

Repeated scare stories about Roundup. Which is the trade name of the original glyphospate formulation but now the patent has expired and the compound is sold under a number of labels. I have used it since the mid seventies when it came into use with no ill effects. It has replaced hundreds of thousands of gallons of truly nasty herbicides in that time with a compound that starts to deteriorate within seconds of contact with the soil. The plants touched however are finished. Some plants are not affected by the chemical and some have had a gene spiced to make them immune to Roundup and allow that crop to be cheaply weeded and be grown more economically. So if you fear a gene out of say a juniper which tolerates roundup, then I am sorry for you. But if you want to live in terror of this or any other invention of the control freaks, please feel free to build you a glass bubble and stay in it until you starve to death.

 

[Haraga]

What is the other forum?

 

[ForrestB]

feel free to build you a glass bubble and stay in it until you starve to death.

Well alrighty then.

 

[Beelosopher]

So long as your trust the creators of round up, sure it is. I know people who have smoked cigarettes for 35 years and never got cancer. Guess, there is no correlation to smoking and cancer. Fungicides used to be reported as safe for bees. Now we are finding out that isn't the case as well.

Using anecdotal evidence is not proof/disproof of causation.

 

[Satch]

I know, we should have complete faith in Monsanto and any other chemical producer because they say so.

The other forum is Missouriwhitetails.com

 

[Rader Sidetrack]

Glyphosate (Roundup) is not "good" for bees as it is an herbicide, and the normal use of this herbicide is to kill 'weeds', many of which are bee food. The bees might be better off if herbicides were never invented, but that might be a tad difficult. Ordinary salt has been used as an herbicide for over a thousand years.

The real issue is using glyphosate for weed control better than the practical alternatives? I challenge those who think glyphosate is 'bad' to point out a better alternative.


Most formulations of glyphosate do have a surfactant as a small part of the mix. Surfactants are similar to soap/detergent and can kill bees if sprayed directly on them by blocking their ability to breathe through their spiracles. But spraying soapy water on bees will have the same effect.

 

[Beelosopher]

I challenge those who think glyphosate is 'bad' to point out a better alternative.

Weedwacker?

My point is that we tend to believe better living through chemistry is a necessity. Then we find out later, after we have been using these great new chemicals, there are hazards we didn't anticipate. Often our review was only two inches in from of our nose.

I know round up is convenient. But what exactly is the necessity to use this chemical, outside of not wanting to use a weed whacker, or other non chemical based approach.

I am a realist, not a bleeding heart idealist. But I when I learn about something like this, which I didn't fully understand, I try to vote with my pocketbook (when I do understand it better). I also try to pass the info on so people can assess, and make their own call.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eUd9rRSLY4A

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h_AHLDXF5aw


We are seeing this same kind of realization with neonics right now. It is like the same thing in a new package.

 

[Rader Sidetrack]

> I know round up is convenient. But what exactly is the necessity to use this chemical, outside of not wanting to use a weed whacker, or other non chemical based approach.


OK, here is one example.

I have a gravel driveway, approximately 1200 ft long, with parts on a moderately steep hill (total elevation rise approx 160 vertical feet). The driveway does not get enough vehicle traffic to eliminate weeds, yet if I allow weeds to grow, tires slip on the wet weeds after/during rain and I cannot get up the hill.

Mowing the weeds does nothing to address the problem, short mowed wet grass is still slippery. Glyphosate is the most practical solution.

While this may seem a trivial example to you, it certainly is not to me - at least when the grass is wet.


There are thousands of other individual situations where a weed wacker or other mechanical weed control is not practical.

 

[Dave Burrup]

Here is another example. We have Canadian thistle, Morning Glory, and several different perennial grass species. Uncontrolled all of these will render crop land worthless in a short time. Weed whackers, hoes, shovels, or any other cultivation are useless in controlling these weeds.
Dave

 

[JRG13]

Seriously, a weedeater? It astounds me how people counter science with utter nonsense sometimes. Of course glyphosate has inherent risks, just like any other chemical, but to downright form baseless opinions on it from unfounded theories/opinions is just lacking common sense and is how all these false truths get started.

 

[Beelosopher]

In rader's case how about vinegar. Check this out:
http://www.gcbl.org/live/home/landscaping/is-there-a-safe-alternative-to-roundup

As for Dave's comments, I am not a farmer. But I know we have been growing crops for lifetimes and round up was not around.

And you astound me JRG, contributing absolutely nothing with your comments. My opinions are anything but baseless, or from lacking common sense. Take a look at the couple video links I posted. Spend 15 minutes googling on the topic. If anything your comments are the ones lacking any base.

 

[Rader Sidetrack]

> In rader's case how about vinegar.

1200 ft of driveway, average 9 ft wide is close to 11,000 sq ft. How many gallons of vinegar per year do you think it will require to keep weeds off that driveway? And how much $$$? :scratch: And what will all that vinegar runoff do to my local stream water quality?

Since I apply glyphosate with a hand pump sprayer that I walk around with, I would be walking and carrying many gallons of vinegar up (or down) the hill. That 160 vertical feet is equivalent to a 16 story building, walking the staircase all the way to the top. I get enough exercise as it is, thank you.


I currently use about 2 quarts of glyphosate per year on my driveway. That costs about $10 per year, plus my time. Vinegar simply is not practical.

 

[Michael Bush]

All my life I've been hearing that this chemical or that is harmless and all my life a few years later it is banned because it causes cancer in humans or has some other serious side effects. Do you folks actually believe what we have now is safe? I've heard that line all my life and it's never turned out to have been true yet... you can't know the long term effects of exposure to something until you've been exposed to it long term... and you trust the research on how safe these chemicals are?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roundup_(herbicide)#Scientific_fraud
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/weed-whacking-herbicide-p/

2-4-D of course was accidently developed by people working on chemical warfare to kill humans...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2,4-Dichlorophenoxyacetic_acid#History

 

[Beelosopher]

And what will all that vinegar runoff do to my local stream water quality?

That isn't the question to ask. The question to ask is what will that glyphosate do to your local stream water.

from that article "However, when glyphosate reaches rivers and streams, it is very toxic to aquatic life. "

Additionally, you could always use a propane torch to kill those weeds long term. Unless you have a fire hazard type of situation in TN. In NY, that is what I do for my driveway with regard to weeds growing up.

(this is the one I have: http://www.homedepot.com/p/Lincoln-...00341111?cm_sp=BazVoice-_-RLP-_-100341111-_-x)

I only offer those suggestions because you asked - I am not telling you what to do. You have some information, you get to choose what to do with it.

 

[justin]

bees only consume 2 things, nectar and pollen. what does herbicide in lethal or nonlethal doses do to the nectar and pollen of plants?

 

[Snookie]

Not sure about how safe Round Up is...I simply use the seasoned water left after a crawfish boil to kill grass around my hives:}

Cyan Pepper, Salt, Lemon Juice, Onion Juice and other Crawfish seasoning sure keeps the Bee Yard looking good.

Ps works great on Fire Ant hills here in South Louisiana too:}

 

[JRG13]

Beelosopher, I was just generalizing the topic's notion of how absurd theories breed internet truths, I hadn't even looked at the links you posted, but now that I have I stand by my original post more than ever. You forgot the trifecta, no link to chemtrails, shame on you.

 

[Bee Herder]

Not sure about how safe Round Up is...I simply use the seasoned water left after a crawfish boil to kill grass around my hives:}

Cyan Pepper, Salt, Lemon Juice, Onion Juice and other Crawfish seasoning sure keeps the Bee Yard looking good.

Ps works great on Fire Ant hills here in South Louisiana too:}

Now were talkin Snookie. I'm checking flights as we speak. When and what time did you say the next crawfish boil is? I love me some mudbugs!

 

[jim lyon]

In an effort to make this thread have some relevance to beekeeping, I offer up these photos taken last summer of my 100 acre CRP field. This was previously an alfalfa field that had become increasingly worthless for forage as it was getting overrun with wild oats, pennycress, musk thistle and a variety of other weeds that had become a source of concern for my neighbors who were concerned about the spread of these noxious weeds.
The solution? A one time burn down application of roundup followed by a no till seeding of a native grass mix of big blue stem, little blue stem, needle grass and indiangrass with a nice sprinkling of alfalfa and sweet clover that the bees love. I chose the mixture because it closely resembles the tall grass pastures of the Dakotas hundreds of years ago. A year later it had turned into my own private nature preserve. A really fun place to walk through imagining you are in a time long ago with bird nests liberally sprinkled throughout and all done without any tillage and the resulting erosion. Thanks to glyphosate this was so easy a beekeeper could do it.
http://s470.photobucket.com/user/ji...RP/1400274792_zps6be82bc0.jpg.html?sort=3&o=0