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I heard somewhere that some people injure a queen to cause supersedure as opposed to just killing her. Anyone have experience with this method of "requeening".
Injuring queen to cause supersedure.
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been doing this a long time,never heard of that. sounds to me like speculation and supposing that got repeated as fact. good luck,mike
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Sounds like an excuse for careless handling of the queen! It would make more sense to just remove her so there is no pheremone present and they start supercedure sooner with better younger larvae.
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My initial thought was that a supersedure queen might be a better quality queen than an emergency queen...
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A swarm queen is the best in nature. A supercedure queen might be if the food stores are good and the eggs and day old larva are plentiful. Injuring a queen is easily interpreted as still viable until it is too late by the hive. There are no definitives in beekeeping that is the artistry of experience.
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I read somewhere that some have clipped the rear legs off their queen. Now she can't lay eggs on the lower rows of the frame.
The hive will detect that, create a new queen, then smother the old one.
Why not just rais a new queen on your own though?
The hive will detect that, create a new queen, then smother the old one.
Why not just rais a new queen on your own though?
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What I read was that they pulled or clipped off one leg. Americasbeekeeper is right, it is possible they would wait until there where no eggs/larvae the right age, you'd be playing the odds so to speak. Like he said nothing in beekeeping works the same all the time. I have seen queens fail and the hive wait too late; and in that case I just gave them a frame of open brood. But to answer your question, seems it would be easier, cheaper and as long as she made it back from her mating flights you'd probably have a quality queen already accepted.
No No, they don't do this to replace that queen. They will injure the queen so the workers will produce supersedure cells, the cells are cut out and used in nucs for increase. By doing this, you have a good fertile queen, but one who is damaged so won't lay productively enough to satisfy the workers, so the workers will keep trying to replace her. Gives you a steady slow supply of queen cells built naturally by the bees for making increase. This was done back in 1800's before grafting was so standardly used.
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I have read all the queen rearing books I can find. Who intentionally injured queens and why would it still be considered when there are better proven methods now?
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Thanks Ray I knew I had heard about that somewhere...
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i've never done this, and only heard about it recently, but it is an intriguing idea.
i've heard kim flottum (and others) talk about package bee supercedure. the wood cages have plastic screens stapled on...the screens are often stretched a bit during stapling.
the bees in the package would like to attack the queen...with a stretched screen, the workers can get at and injure some of the tarsal glands (on the foot) of the queen.
as the queen walks around the colony, she leaves a complex mixture of pheremones as a trail. if her tarsal glands are damaged, she might not leave a trail that smells like a healthy queen...thus, a queen that is laying well and otherwise healthy gets superceded.
this was (according to kim) less of a problem when metal screens were used...and perhaps a good reason to use jzbz plastic cages.
to do this on purpose in a colony makes a certain amount of sense. without going through the trouble of rearing queens (or even setting up nucs), the old queen continues to lay while the colony raises a new one. supercedure occurs after the new queen successfully returns from mating flights...and if she gets eaten by a bird or for some other reason doesn't make it back, the old queen is still laying, and the colony can try again without a break in broodrearing.
not simply to be dismissed as dumb beekeeping, imho. an interesting way to requeen, hedge your bets, and save a bunch of work (and possibly productivity).
deknow
deknow
i've heard kim flottum (and others) talk about package bee supercedure. the wood cages have plastic screens stapled on...the screens are often stretched a bit during stapling.
the bees in the package would like to attack the queen...with a stretched screen, the workers can get at and injure some of the tarsal glands (on the foot) of the queen.
as the queen walks around the colony, she leaves a complex mixture of pheremones as a trail. if her tarsal glands are damaged, she might not leave a trail that smells like a healthy queen...thus, a queen that is laying well and otherwise healthy gets superceded.
this was (according to kim) less of a problem when metal screens were used...and perhaps a good reason to use jzbz plastic cages.
to do this on purpose in a colony makes a certain amount of sense. without going through the trouble of rearing queens (or even setting up nucs), the old queen continues to lay while the colony raises a new one. supercedure occurs after the new queen successfully returns from mating flights...and if she gets eaten by a bird or for some other reason doesn't make it back, the old queen is still laying, and the colony can try again without a break in broodrearing.
not simply to be dismissed as dumb beekeeping, imho. an interesting way to requeen, hedge your bets, and save a bunch of work (and possibly productivity).
deknow
deknow
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deKnow,
Thank You Sir,
My point exactly...
Thank You Sir,
My point exactly...
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Yes Ray I read this too I think one of the mags had an artical back about 10 or 12 years ago about how that beofre mail order queens the keeper would cut a back leg off so the hive would replace her.
I've seen many crippled queens last several years. I don't think it's a good plan...
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Michael,
" Everything works if you let it",
( Sometimes )
Gary
" Everything works if you let it",
( Sometimes )
Gary
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I found this thread, and was wondering...if this is not recommended...what's the best way to get a daughter queen in a dearth when you only have 1 hive?
I'd like to try and start my bee's DNA with the one I have now, mixed with local drone. My thinking is that if my hive is strong and the bees around me are strong, a strong lineage will emerge.
I'd like to try and start my bee's DNA with the one I have now, mixed with local drone. My thinking is that if my hive is strong and the bees around me are strong, a strong lineage will emerge.
If you take the current queen and a frame of brood that she's on and a frame of honey and make a nuc, the original colony will raise a new queen. If by some chance they fail you can reintroduce the old queen.
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Thanks for being brave enough to put this idea out for discussion. There is of course an element of horror that will have an influence on weighing the pros and cons.
It seems like the process has the possibility or removing the negatives associated with supercedure cell vs emergency cell.
If I have an older queen whose genetics I value I would certainly give it a try it rather than having her possibly die over winter and lose a colony. I have pinched a few in just such circumstances. I pinched one a few days ago but that was in suspicion of mothering cranky bees.
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