:scratch:

 

If you are speaking of a queen that has turned into a drone layer (ie. Lost her semen), the answer is NO. If you're speaking of a hive that has lost it's queen and gone "laying worker", there are many thoughts on the subject, most of which from what i've read and heard says since the drone is smaller (ie. being reared in normal worker cells) that it wouldn't be as strong as a normal drone causing them not to be able to keep up with a queen, etc. I'm not aware of any studies that have been done specifically myself, but there may be someone else on here that has.

 

I saw a talk ( can't remember who the speaker was ) where it was mentioned that drones reared in worker sized cells are still able to reach sexual maturity. Don't know if drones raised that way are at a disadvantage when it comes to mating opportunities.
I had a nuc go queenless this summer and it developed laying worker. I let it play out, for observation and educational value, and I saw drones coming and going just the same as drones in my other colonies were doing, but don't know if any of the laying worker drones were mating or not.

 

A study done in Germany in the late 90s said that small drones from laying workers were at a "reproductive disadvantage" in natural mating compared to drones raised in normal drone cells. The drones from laying workers are often use in II Queens, but the cell preference is for normal drone sized cells for the laying workers to use.

 

They are at a reproductive disadvantage because of their size and not a genetic deficiency, A drone carries a single set if genes. It matters not weather they came from a queen or Laying worker. The only difference is size at pupations end. There has been research showing that LW drones can mature to full size even though the emerge smaller1

 

'Good question, and one I've been looking into lately (cabin fever).

As with many topics related to beekeeping, there is often speculation and reasoning, but less often scientifically reliable deduction. Breeder studies emphasize the importance of "drone saturation" with drones of the most desirable traits.

From: http://www.beesource.com/point-of-view/erik-osterlund/buckfast-breeding-principles/
"...drone control. Most often you only select the mother colony of your new queens and let them mate randomly. Or you may put together your best colonies in the same apiary, which you make your mating area for your virgin queens. That’s no bad principle at all in general. But to make a faster progress you must have more control of what kind of drones your queens will mate to."

It is easier to control the drone (male) influence on selected traits than with the queen. One might assume that these "breeding" drones are mostly from the strongest or "best" hive, as strong hives = more drones. On the other hand, where & with what drones the queen chooses to mate is often beyond reasonable control.

Some studies/observations suggest that queens have developed a tendency to fly further than the drones from the same or nearby hives, reducing the likelihood of inbreeding. There are also reports of queens mating within the same yard they originate from, or very nearby. "Drone saturation" appears to be the most widely accepted approach, among large scale breeders, to insure maintaining "breed purity". On any lesser scale, "the jury seems to be out" on the subject, at least in so far as I've found .

As to the "viability" of laying worker drones, vs queen progeny - it would seem that the resulting LW drones would be specifically tied to the drone that fathered that batch of workers that became laying workers. It shouldn't be very difficult to determine whether the LW drones are fertile - as easy as some AI work. As to whether those drones can physically compete with "first order" drones - well, that seems to remain the unproven question. Queens have been said to be "selective" about which drones they "choose" to mate with, but actual scientific proof is scant.

Again, 'Good question - sorry I can't provide much more than opinions and insight. The topic has generated a fair amount of speculation & reasoning. Hopefully someone can provide some links to actual studies on the subject.

 

The reason I Started this thread is I had a hive that went queenless and became a drone layer. Last year I wanted to make splits but had to wait until there was enough drones flying. I was thinking with all those drones I might be able to get some queens mated a little earlier. I think I'll just wait but it got me thinking.

 

Like I said - good question.:thumbsup: I've wondered the same thing. I haven't come across a definitive answer, yet.

 

Pure conjecture here, but if a queen mates with laying worker's drones you may be selecting for the tendency for future generations to become laying workers.
Bill

 

In an advanced DL hive the drones are poorly raised, some of them die before they even get to hatch. Out of curiosity I have sometimes tried to harvest semen from these drones (I mean small, worker cell raised drones), they are not as ready to ejaculate and for the most part have no sperm. However I have not been scientific about age selection, just did it on a bunch of random drones in a hive.

Properly raised drones are viable even if from a drone layer. One technique used for line breeding using II, is to confine a virgin so she cannot mate and stimulate her to lay using carbon dioxide. She is given drone cells to lay in and these are then transferred to another hive to be raised. Upon maturity, semen is collected from these drones and used to inseminate their own mother.

Not saying I agree with the practise but it can be and is done.

 

I understand the process, but what is the expected or sought after results of doing this? Possibly expression of certain traits/genes?

 

It's to try to "fix" a certain trait, by mating a bee that has it with basically a clone of itself.

 

Should add to that, when this is done the queen is generally mated with just one drone, that is to keep her progeny as genetically pure as possible, if 2 drones were used there would be greater genetic diversity among the offspring. Even though the drones are from the same mother there are still genetic differences between them.

The object is not to make a queen that will have a long life or head a production hive. All she has to do is lay eggs for a short period, which can enable up to thousands of queens to be raised from her if need be although in most line breeding programs a smaller amount of queens will do.

To some, this whole concept of how to breed would be repulsive. To me, I don't think we should do it a lot, but there are occasions when is has it's uses. Let's say, as a hypothetical example, someone happened upon a hive that could have thousands of varroa mites thrown at it, and repulse them all. An ultimate mite resistant machine. In such circumstances this genetic material should be treated as gold, and not be squandered just on the vagaries of open mating. There would be a strong case for line breeding and fixing this trait among thousands of almost identical queens, then using that broader base for further development of the strain.

It is in these type scenarios where keepers of survivor bees, and skilled professional breeders who use technology, could benefit by getting their heads together and cooperating for the benefit of all, rather than the discord that is often the order of the day. To do this, both have to understand and accept the others ideas and methods.

 

If I understand this correctly, the queen controls the drone genetics. When a man releases his sperm, each is different as genetic reconfiguration and division have occurred inside of him. A honeybee drone has no genetic recombination as they are hapliod. That occurred inside queen, so all sperm an individual drone is the same. Now as to a drone laying queen there would be no issue with her drone offspring(i don't think), but where does the haploidness occur. There would be no recombination to make the hapliod drone. The drone would be a male version of the queen, only 1/2 the genetics with no contribution from the males she mated with. As to a worker layer, we know that drones laid by her do emerge, so I would assume it can function as a drone from an unmated queen

 

A laying worker is simply natures way of giving a hopelessly queenless colony a last ditch effort to keep their genetics within the gene pool. Were LW drones completely nonviable the entire exercise would be futile! I have read and participated in countless studies throughout my life. One thing remains abundantly clear, nothing in nature is without a reason.