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The only advantage in the colony is if they receive a treatment of some sort when all mites become phoretic.
here are the results of brooded up OAV, brood break form 26 days caging, and OAV with a brood break form 26 days caging
cageing.jpg

The problem is the same as we saw in ross conrads brood break work.. it can work and keep the bees alive, but the honey production tanks at that point why keep bees https://projects.sare.org/project-reports/fne16-840/


saying a brood break doesn't have a impact is like saying mite bombs don't exist or impact hives .. It just doesn't follow the science and field experience.

arguably a break isn't enuff in many places, you need more... be it devideing the mite load , resistant stocks, using a traping comb, etc..

but at that point, you propping up poor stocks just like treatments
 

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Ja well no fine, I have been hearing these stories about resistant bees for the last 10 years, I have purchased breeder queens of this kind of stock and have had them and many other stocks in my yards but at the end of the day if I do not reduce the mite population those bees all fade out after a year or so. I will prefer to rely on my experience of bees and mites instead of looking for these elusive resistant bees.
 

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Ja well no fine, I have been hearing these stories about resistant bees for the last 10 years, I have purchased breeder queens of this kind of stock and have had them and many other stocks in my yards but at the end of the day if I do not reduce the mite population those bees all fade out after a year or so. I will prefer to rely on my experience of bees and mites instead of looking for these elusive resistant bees.
Resistance is not a binary choice (T/F) but rather a wide range of values spread across several dimensions.
What we've been saying for while now, even in this exact thread, just above.
Everyone needs to study their own case and understand it and see what is possible for them.
 

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"Everyone needs to study their own case and understand it and see what is possible for them."

This is a tall order indeed. Very elusive target, this understanding bit. Very much open to subjective conclusion and small sample size error. I have seen so many with complete conviction that they had the holy grail of methodology and genetic fortune and in a year or in some cases a month or two later, had done a 180 and going the opposite direction with equal enthusiasm and certainty.

The few who have apparently found the path and been on it for a considerable period of time, often do not know exactly what to attribute their success to.
 

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"Everyone needs to study their own case and understand it and see what is possible for them."

This is a tall order indeed. Very elusive target, this understanding bit. Very much open to subjective conclusion and small sample size error. I have seen so many with complete conviction that they had the holy grail of methodology and genetic fortune and in a year or in some cases a month or two later, had done a 180 and going the opposite direction with equal enthusiasm and certainty.

The few who have apparently found the path and been on it for a considerable period of time, often do not know exactly what to attribute their success to.
Basically why I have been catching the bees and then watching what will happen - otherwise, just impossible to believe anyone.
It appears, there is no binary choice - treat/don't treat.
Those on the far ends of this discussions present it as-if a simple binary choice.
No, not binary.

I don't treat - my bees die.
GWW/SP don't treat - their bees live.
And so on...
Both outcomes are true.
Many cases are in the middle.
It is more complicated than simple treat or not treat.

As for me, 50% survival be just great, if it is reasonably easy and reasonably consistent.
Some kind of methodology that is clean and producing enough return for the labors.
Some kind of 20/80 approach for the effort/payback.
 

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I am isolated by about three miles from other bees and then only a handful of hives in those cases. No feral bees and no movement through of pollination bees. I have bees from a reputable bee producer and have no problem with dilution of my genetics. I dont have a big battle to control mites and probably could manage with IPM methods but not so inclined. No wax moths and no small hive beetles.

There seems common enough to be a pattern of good survival TF developing and then a crash. Maybe something like the cycles of arctic voles and hares. Population booms, disease and predation peaks, collapse and cleansing, recover, rinse and repeat.

I dont possess the tranquility that GWW has to tolerate the "go with the flow and observe''! Maybe it is an illusion, but I have to feel that I can be in control of the outcome.
 

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Maybe this treatment thing has its disadvantages such as , I have 5 ten frame nucs I cannot sell for $100 each and I also have a surplus of 15 colonies comprising of 3 eight frame mediums That I cannot find buyers at $250 each. Maybe I should just stop treating and they will go away or last resort is hot soapy water . I am starting to get where beekeeping sucks.
 

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I dont have a big battle to control mites and probably could manage with IPM methods
I don't understand why people say things like that, IMP includes the nuclear option, full synthetic miticides as/if needed.. but yes it is also things like making a flyback split to give an overwinered hive a fresh start, with out chemicals

Many cases are in the middle.
It is more complicated than simple treat or not treat..
correct... IPM is the middle, built on sold foundation of resistant stock...

You don't treat, I do 1-2 times a year, johno does about 20
We have 3 approaches
TF, IPM, Treat on a schedule... different locations, diffrent methods, different goles
I like the middle ground.. gives me data to make selection decisions and I treat when needed to protect valuable genetics and resources.
This alows me to leverage what I have to improve my lines and try to enact change on a landscape scale

but the middle takes more work then turning a blind eye to the mites or treating blindly
 

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but the middle takes more work then turning a blind eye to the mites or treating blindly
I agree; I am lazy and not imbued with the pursuit of "natural". This is second year of using partial worker comb wit drone areas each side so plenty of drones. I dont cull drone to kill the concentrated mites but to assess their level. So far have seen only ONE mite and I have pulled many thousands of drones.

Once you get mite levels near zero and have no in drift from other colonies it is not hard to keep that level. Not a matter of being clever at controlling mites; just a very uncommon set of "local conditions". If that situation changes the response would not be gradual escalation.;)
 

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Discussion Starter #30
There seems common enough to be a pattern of good survival TF developing and then a crash. Maybe something like the cycles of arctic voles and hares. Population booms, disease and predation peaks, collapse and cleansing, recover, rinse and repeat.
You hit the nail! Without disease control any population will crash occasionally, whatever species, wild or domestic. With an apiary packed with multiple hives it is similar to feedlot cattle. If you are isolated and start with disease-free stock you might go years without problems. If you have stock coming in regularly it's rolling the dice when a disease will show up.

We have it far worse with bees, given that something like half the bees are taken to Cali every year then redistributed throughout the US. Every possible disease is concentrated in one location and then sent out again. There will be no permanent solution if migratory beekeeping to Cali is allowed. So, there will be no solution. The bee stock will get more resistant to whatever is currently a problem, but something new will always be coming.

TF will never be easy in the US.
 

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Every possible disease is concentrated in one location and then sent out again. There will be no permanent solution if migratory beekeeping to Cali is allowed
disagree
as you say
If you have stock coming in regularly it's rolling the dice when a disease will show up.
the real problem for most of us is the whole sale importation of out of state bees for the hobbyist market

The local shops with in a 30 mile radius of me brought in something like 4000+ packages this year... just like every year
here is a drop of 975 Picture1.jpg one of many
 

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Discussion Starter #32
disagree
as you say
the real problem for most of us is the whole sale importation of out of state bees for the hobbyist market
That is certainly an additional factor tending in the same direction.
 

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ive had good overwintering success doing brood breaks combined with powder sugar treatments. NO chemicals what so ever. I also only run like 5 hives.
 

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I love how C12H22O11 "isn't a chemical" but some how C2H2O4 "is a chemical" ?

my town has about the same population as sick dogs county

Littleton CO-13.75 sq mi and a pop of 48,065

Montgomery County, New York 410 sq mi pop 50,219

location maters
 

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Discussion Starter #37
Thanks to Litsinger for posting this study (open access):
https://www.cell.com/trends/parasitology/fulltext/S1471-4922(20)30101-X#

I am thinking particularly about the following paragraph:

Viruses, Varroa Thresholds, and Virulence Management
If virulence is not punished, it will proliferate. Keeping weak colonies alive during winter, through intensive varroa management or by combining with strong colonies, encourages the transmission and survival of virulent varroa and virus traits, much like reinvasion [40
]. One of the most important, and least adopted, practices in virulence management is culling, which is largely absent in beekeeping other than for American foulbrood (AFB). Since the only host for varroa is the honey bee, which is overwhelmingly controlled by beekeepers, culling would be particularly effective for removing inadequate honey bee genetics and virulent varroa-virus traits...



I am considering using my second yard for a low-management trial. Observe mite numbers and pinch queens from those hives that appear more susceptible. Not bond in the sense of letting them die. Pinch and requeen. Maintain my home yard for more intensive observation and intervention.

Currently I have only one line of queens, all descendants of a single swarm, so that's a serious limitation right now.
 

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...Pinch and requeen...
May end up wasting good queens, I think.
I have.

From my experience, no good queen can turn around things that progressed too far (unless you catch them early - which is not usually possible because you simply don't see the problem yet; when you finally see the problem, it is too late to re-requeen).

The entire unit just needs to go.
A fine option when you need to consolidate anyway (like at the end of the season).

OR - pinch and treat hard and then requeen.
 

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How many years?
not very long 6 years. But i do notice a difference.But then again i believe its easier to keep mites under control running fewer hives that are not in close proximity. I overwinter with a single brood chamber and a me honey super
 

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Brood breaks, Drone Comb culling or Small Cell does nothing for hygienic behavior against Varrao.
 
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