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yeah i would like to stay chemical free and to be "natural" but i've had many people tell me that i needed to do that, thats how come i asked... Thanks alot!
 

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weigh the advice very carefuly that is given on this forum. package bees are prone to nosema as are the queens that come along with them. this is due to stress from confinement and travel. not feeding fumigillin could more harm then good while feeding it, as most beeks would, could very will be what prevents nosema from killing your investment with out any difference or detrement to the bees. then at least if your bees still die after ward, you can at least say 'I tried' instead of 'I should of" with no treatment.

PS: I fed fumigillin last year in my fall feed. This spring I had my bees tested by the ministry of apiculture. The final spore count - 0, and it shows in the present health of my hives.
 

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The honey from my hives is consumed by my children and grandchildren. When I learned that the bees move honey from the brood chamber to the honey supers, that was the end of me using Fumigillin.
I'd rather have the bees die than poison my grandchildren!
Michael Bush is right. If they can't exist without Fumagillin, them maybe they shouldn't.
This is the type of issue that makes me very cautious about buying anyone's honey.
Ernie Becking
Fairfax, VA
 

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ErnieB: The honey from my hives is consumed by my children and grandchildren. When I learned that the bees move honey from the brood chamber to the honey supers, that was the end of me using Fumigillin.
I'd rather have the bees die than poison my grandchildren!
This is a philosophical discussion. What is your philosophy on raising bees? Mine is that the hive is a complex superorganism made up of, not only bees, but microbes of many types. Either of the two you listed will disrupt those microbes, so I would use neither.

If you philosophy is that chemicals are good and microbes are bad, then you probably should.
Is Fumagillin a poison? Really? I like philosophy also. Perhaps, a little hormesis theory here.

"all things are poison and nothing is without poison, only the dose makes something not a poison." Paracelsus, 16th Century OR modern day hormesis theory = a process whereby organisms exposed to low levels of stress or toxins become more resistant to tougher challenges.

We're not talking about plutonium here. Fumagillan is approved for use in humans for pretty much the same type of thing and certainly is not considered a poison.

Isn't Nosema a protozoan disease, so caused by an amoeba? Fumagillan is an antibiotic ester produced by a soil fungus. Isn't Fumagillan effective against the amoeba because it blocks an enzyme the amoeba needs to reproduce (or eat/feed or something similar in its life style)? --thus, not really as an antibiotic in the classic sense (in other words, it is NOT causing the honeybee to make antibodies against a microbic invader BUT simply allowing them a "break"/ a "one-up" to get stronger on their own)? If yes, such treatments are usually effective at stopping the parasite's reproduction and allowing the host to more or less recover on its own by becoming stronger.

In my mind, I equate Fumagillan with the thiamine blockers (amprolium) in "medicated feed" of chicken feed (of which I am familiar) that block the coccidiosis causing agent (also caused by a spore producing bacteria in the chicken's intestine){chicks not raised on the ground are not exposed to the protozoan spores early on and so do not build their own immunities like chicks in the yard with the mama hen so being suddenly exposed after being raised in a brooder box indoors puts them suddenly at risk when placed outdoors for the first time-- the thiamine blocker in the feed (not really even a medicine) merely blocks the nutrient uptake of the bacteria preventing them from reproducing very fast giving the chick time to build its own immunity} -- incidentally, I do not use because I let the hen raise the chicks outside on the ground, but if indoors, I'd use without hesitation as prophylactic.

OR in humans, the use of the sulfa antibiotic, Bactrim, utilized for a host of infections as a "real antibiotic" but used in the non-classical sense a lot to treat the drug resistant staph (MRSA)-- it works by only blocking/inhibiting the bad bacteria's "fast" reproduction thus giving your own body a chance to build its own defenses naturally & NOT itself causing the human body to make antibodies (my next door neighbor is a physician & explains it this way to me).

I am all for "natural" when practical. I don't use any pesticides outside & use natural pest eaters-- I do drink and eat out of plastic containers though. If the Nosema causing amoeba is "unnatural" to the honeybee, then IMHO, I do not see how one can fathom that using a natural occurring agent (i.e. a natural occurring ester acid produced by the soil fungus, Aspergillus) to merely block a site on the Nosema amoeba preventing it from feeding or reproducing thereby allowing the bee to naturally get stronger is somehow rising to a level of a "poison." How is it such action "poisoning [your] grandchildren?" Again, I know plutonium is naturally occurring too-- but that is not what we are talking about here. What "helpful microbes" of the honeybee are likewise inhibited? Does anyone know that?

Doesn't the state inspector check for these substances in the honey supers? If the bees take enough of it there, wouldn't it be detected?

Not meaning to cause an argument -- just wanting to know, to learn (don't have my first bees yet-- a couple of weeks to go). Seems like there are a lot of scarier things out there. The beekeeper where I am getting my bees does not use any pesticides but says Nosema is something serious around here so he treats his bees (and those I am getting) in the Spring & Fall with Fumagillan.
 

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I myself would rather invest in a pollen patty and a gallon of sugar syrup.
You'd be surprised how much a healthy meal can pick you up after a roadtrip.
 

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Re: Honey bee heathy vs. Fumigillin B?

ScientificBeekeeping.com

It was suggested that at low infection levels, feeding pollen substitutes may be a better investment than treating for Nosema with fumigillin.

Just a thought.
 

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With all due respect to Mr. Bush, and others, I would disagree about his philosophy. Do you not go to the doctor, when you get sick? And you get better and lead a productive life. Every now and then, all living things can use a little help. NOW, with chemical use and food products, there are certain precautions you have to take. Maybe if you have to treat a hive during the honey flow, you might want to discard the honey from that hive, that year. There are injectables that we give cows and horses, that prevent the animals from being safe for slaughter, for several months, but down the road, they are fine.

Again, this is my opinion, and all cases are individual, and should be treated as such.
 

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Package bees vary considerably in quality and health. I suggest taking samples and sending them to Beltsville, before treating them with anything except TLC. A little stimulative feeding might help, if the weather is crummy, but beyond that the best recipe is natural nectar, pollen and good weather. Recent studies showed that some packages had no nosema. Maybe because they were fed fumagillin by the shipper.

Packages are typically produced in warm regions of the United States in spring and shipped throughout the United States to replace colonies that perished during winter. Although the package bee industry is effective in replacing colonies lost in winter, packages also can be an effective means of dispersing diseases, parasites, and undesirable stock to beekeepers throughout the United States. To evaluate the quality of packages, we examined 48 packages representing six lines of bees purchased in the spring 2006.

We found significant differences in both the mean Varroa mite per bee ratios (0.004 Ð 0.054) and the average percentage of drones (0.04 Ð5.1%) in packages from different producers. We found significant differences in the number of Nosema-infected packages (0.0Ð75.0%) among the six lines. No packages contained detectable levels of A. woodi. Considering the observed variability among honey bee packages, beekeepers should be aware of the potential for pest and disease infestations and high drone levels in packages.

What’s in That Package? An Evaluation of Quality of Package Honey Bee (Hymenoptera: Apidae) Shipments in the United States
JAMES P. STRANGE, et al. in: J. Econ. Entomol. 101(3): 668-673 (2008)
 

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Is fumagillin a poison? It is for some things, not for others. Just like any substance, it depends on the concentration and the susceptibility. Fumagillin is an antibiotic produced by Aspergillus fumigatus, a naturally occurring fungus.

Many antibiotics are extracted from fungi and many fungi are extremely poisonous.These organisms produce toxins against their enemies. Penicillin is also extracted from a fungus and has saved countless lives.

People don't die from minor infections any more because of antibiotics. Antibiotics can have harmful side effects, it is true. But few of us would prefer gangrene or lockjaw to taking penicillin or getting a tetanus shot.

I would afford my bees the same care I would to my pet dog. I wouldn't sit back and allow him to die from an easily treatable disease or parasite. But I also wouldn't use extraordinary measures to save a pet animal.
 

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It causes birth defects in mammals. I'd call that poison. Most of the rest of the world has outlawed it's use at all and outlawed it's use in bees.
I don't think that's the reason it's forbidden by the EU. They forbid any antibiotics on bees, whether harmful to humans or not. Honestly, the amount of antibiotic in honey is so small as to be almost indetectable. But plenty of natural pollens and nectars are toxic, too.

Examples of natural toxicants in poisonous plants interfering with reproduction are numerous. Abortion in livestock from locoweeds, ponderosa pine needles, broom snakeweeds, fescue, and others are reported in studies. Selenium and seleniferous forage inhibit estrus in cattle and swine. Emaciation and temporary illness from sneezeweeds, bitterweed, locoweed, larkspur, lupines, and others may interfere with mating. Embryonic loss and birth defects from Veratrum, lupines, locoweeds, poison hemlock, and so on, may occur.

The effect of natural toxins on reproduction in livestock
L. F. James, K. E. Panter, D. B. Nielsen and R. J. Molyneux J Anim Sci 1992. 70:1573-1579.
 

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Most of the rest of the world has outlawed it's use at all and outlawed it's use in bees.
Truly this is an exaggeration. Most of the world has very lax regulations on the use of antibiotics on livestock. The European Union, Australia and New Zealand are especially strict. That leaves Asia, The Americas, Africa and a lot of Europe where laws are lax or nonexistent. African honey is probably the purest because many African nations are too poor to use modern chemicals, and much of the honey is harvested from wild bees.

Fumagillin is used to fight microsporidians in AIDS patients.

6 patients cleared their microsporidial infection during the first course of oral fumagillin. None of these patients relapsed during follow-up. Parasitic clearance was associated with clinical benefit. No significant side effects were noted during the trial, except for mild reversible thrombocytopenia. CONCLUSIONS: In AIDS patients with E. bieneusi infection, oral fumagillin has parasitological and clinical efficacy. - Efficacy and safety of intermittent oral fumagillin for the treatment of Enterocytozoon bieneusi infections in patients with AIDS
 

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With all due respect to Mr. Bush, and others, I would disagree about his philosophy. Do you not go to the doctor, when you get sick?
No, I don't.

NOW, with chemical use and food products, there are certain precautions you have to take.
Yes like raising your own food.

Every now and then, all living things can use a little help.
Yes, if I have an animal that is sick, I provide a dry clean environment, little TLC, maybe some extra hay and grain. But if they can't make it without all the chemicals, Weeelll, they just ainta going to make it.

There are injectables that we give cows and horses, that prevent the animals from being safe for slaughter, for several months, but down the road, they are fine.
Not for me. I wonder if the reason for all the fat children isn't because of all the hormones they pump into the livestock, but I don't have to worry about that, I raise most all of what we consume, and none of my children are fat.

Again, this is my opinion, and all cases are individual, and should be treated as such.
Yes, and the above is my opinion, but also how I have chosen to spend my days in this age. Makes you wonder how from eternity passed up until about 100 years ago, Mankind [the Creation of God] existed.

Kindest Regards
Danny
 
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